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Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by mumblemumble on Thursday January 09, 2020 @02:28PM (#22004604)
I can see personal e-scooters as being a great alternative to cars for short trips such as commuting less than 5-ish km to work, or taking the kids to school. However, I still think bicycles are vastly preferable. With a pannier rack you get quite a bit more cargo space, and in the winter, the fact that you're physically exerting yourself helps to keep you warm, which makes for a more comfortable and pleasant trip. Also, the whole "Lithium batteries aren't supposed to be operated below 10C" situation limits e-scooters' value for a large chunk of the year in temperate climates.

The for-hire e-scooter market continues to seem to me like a novelty more than a realistic transportation option. My city's recent e-scooter pilot program hasn't done much to dispel that notion. People used them quite a bit in the first few weeks, but, by the end, most the scooters were obviously going all day without being used.

Also, the whole "last mile" argument started seeming a lot more hollow once I realized that, by the time I got to the busy areas where e-scooters were being placed in the mornings, I was already 75% of the way to the train station. More like "last block". And, at least when they were being used, I'd have to walk well out of my way to find one to use on the way home, too, because they were scattered all over the neighborhood as a result of their normal and intended usage pattern. So, they didn't seem to be much of an effort saver going in either direction.

All that said, I'm guessing that they were being highly valued because of the very low barrier to entry for the market. A fleet of e-scooters is presumably quite a bit less expensive to purchase and maintain than a fleet of docked rental bikes. What got lost in the shuffle was the fact that the dock, while it might seem like an unnecessary annoyance, is actually a big part of what makes those rental bikes pleasant to use.

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by bobthepanda on Thursday January 09, 2020 @03:04PM (#22005040)
The major issue for me with biking, particularly e-biking, is that it can be very expensive if your bike is stolen. Secure bike parking is hard to come by in many places, and even secured bike parking can be broken into. In my city it's also very hilly, so I've taken a rideshare bike down the hill but not up it. Docking also solves this problem, but the problem with docks is that they have to go through whatever NIMBY-obstructed local process the municipality has for setting up docks, they have to be appropriately densely spaced together, etc. and that's a lot of work. Bike/scooter share, at least initially, tried doing the Uber model of "break rules and apologize/legalize later", but I think cities wised up after Uber did it once.
Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by mumblemumble on Thursday January 09, 2020 @03:38PM (#22005426)
Dockless scooters are also much more immediately annoying to a lot more people - basically, a few people ride them, and everyone else trips over and/or fears getting hit by them on the sidewalks.

By contrast, at least in the early stages, rideshare was almost invisible to anyone who wasn't actively using it. That left a much longer runway for the "break rules and then get forgiveness" strategy.

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by angmarsbane on Thursday January 09, 2020 @07:06PM (#22007241)
I'd take my bike everywhere if I knew it'd still be there after I finished having lunch, visiting friends, grocery shopping etc.

As it is though, my bike isn't even safe chained up in a locked garage.

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by 9HZZRfNlpR on Thursday January 09, 2020 @07:35PM (#22007408)
What's going on in America if absolutely everyone is afraid if theft? Or are the bikes just big target?
Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by danans on Thursday January 09, 2020 @08:18PM (#22007653)
There's a market for stolen bikes, and there are enough people whose incentives are such that the rewards of stealing seem higher than the risks of getting caught and punished.

And one place that people land after they fall through the cracks of society is petty theft. In the US, we just have bigger cracks than many other wealthy developed countries. I don't like the theft anymore than anyone else, but I'd rather we not fix it by further criminalizing people through an even harsher police state than we already have, and becoming like even more authoritarian countries.

It's funny that we constantly ask this (very fair) question about common theft, but don't as often express such incredulity at the existence of extreme wealth. These two are connected in many ways.

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by derefr on Thursday January 09, 2020 @07:53PM (#22007530)
It's just bikes. Mostly because they're valuable+standardized enough to be easily fenced, and yet not high-value enough for police to bother investigating. It's like leaving MacBooks sitting on street corners.
Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by conanbatt on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:05PM (#22007842)
My understanding is that bike theft is not prosecuted, even if you found someone that stole 1000 bikes.

If you stole 10 dollars from a bank, you can bet you are prosecuted. Bikes are just not defended as private property for some reason.

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by bobthepanda on Friday January 10, 2020 @12:35PM (#22012794)
Bike chop shops that do that kind of volume do get prosecuted because it’s relatively easy to show that a place is selling a large volume of scrap metal from bikes.

It is much harder to prove that a thief is responsible for 1000 individual bike thefts, because you’d need evidence for each bike.

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by conanbatt on Friday January 10, 2020 @01:07PM (#22013176)
Proving bike theft is as easy as honeypotting any bike. Its just no prosecuted. It's a cultural blindspot for what I think are probably historical reasons.

You can steal a car priced lower than a bike and get a year in jail. ITs not about the cost of proving anything, it's about the willingness of the institution to enforce it.

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by leetcrew on Thursday January 09, 2020 @07:58PM (#22007558)
first of all, yes, anything of value not bolted down is going to get stolen pretty fast in most american cities.

bikes are a particularly easy target. most people seem to use those U-locks that can only go through the frame and one wheel at most. the thief then pops off the other wheel and either pawns it or sells it for scrap. even if you secure the frame and both wheels, people will still strip the shifters and brakes off of it. people can also just cut the lock itself if they bring the appropriate equipment.

finally, nice bikes tend to really stick out. if you lock your $1000 schwinn alongside a bunch of shitty bikes, the thief will go for your bike every time.

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by bobthepanda on Friday January 10, 2020 @12:32PM (#22012768)
- Bikes are an easy target given that most locks are easy to deal with and it’s the only mechanism preventing them from moving; cars are hard if not impossible to hotwire these days

- Bikes are high value but not extremely so, unlike a car, and most police forces do not take bike theft seriously

- Walking around with a stolen bike is a lot less conspicuous than walking around with, say, a stolen TV

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by chihuahua on Thursday January 09, 2020 @08:13PM (#22007630)
Nice bikes are $3000 - $10000. That's not something you want to leave chained to a lamp post in the street. Any lock can be picked or cut.
Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by vadym909 on Thursday January 09, 2020 @11:43PM (#22008372)
anda great entryway for a budding insurance startup to get customers
Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by mumblemumble on Friday January 10, 2020 @09:48AM (#22011258)
There's already Velosurance. It's a good service if you've got a nice bike you're looking to cover.i But it's a heck of a lot cheaper to use a cheap bike as your townie, though, and accept that you might have to replace it every few years.

And it's amazing how strong a theft deterrent crap like stickers can be - it takes 5 seconds with a dremel for a bike thief to grind the serial numbers off a frame so it can't be traced, but the time it takes to scrub stickers off a frame to get it in resellable condition, divided by a cheap frame's resale value, easily works out to an even lower wage than driving for Uber.

Anecdotally, I make my bike up to look like bits are held on with duct tape (they aren't), and in 25 years I've never had a bike stolen. My theory is that thieves aren't looking close enough to figure out that it isn't actually a hoopty bike.

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by scrumbledober on Thursday January 09, 2020 @05:07PM (#22006409)
i utilized and loved the dockless scooters for the first two weeks of my last job in SF, until I found out there was a bicycle room in the garage downstairs.
Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by logifail on Thursday January 09, 2020 @03:17PM (#22005183)
> I can see personal e-scooters as being a great alternative to cars for [...] taking the kids to school

If it's close to 5km, are you really going to take the kids on scooters?

If it's closer to 1km, how about simply walking? Reality check: we have two (of three) kids in school, their walk to school is just over half a mile, they both walk more or less every single day, in summer and winter and in the rain and the snow.

Oddly they really like walking to school in the snow :)

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by catalogia on Thursday January 09, 2020 @06:30PM (#22007015)
When I was a kid I used to ride my leg-powered bicycle three miles to school. 5km on an e-scooter doesn't seem that far different. That's really not a long distance at all.
Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by imustbeevil on Thursday January 09, 2020 @07:31PM (#22007377)
You need a drivers license for the dockless scooters, so there's no way for a child to legally ride one.
Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by catalogia on Thursday January 09, 2020 @10:05PM (#22008041)
You don't need one for a kick scooter though, and exercise is good for kids.
Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by Symbiote on Thursday January 09, 2020 @02:34PM (#22004674)
I visited Moscow last year, and noticed they have docked scooters: https://www.rbth.com/lifestyle/328422-how-rent-electric-scoo...

Plenty of places have undocked bicycles, so a fair comparison is possible.

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by AlexandrB on Thursday January 09, 2020 @11:39PM (#22008350)
> Plenty of places have undocked bicycles...

They certainly do: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-J_4_SQmUNQo/Wuwwsp5w6BI/A...

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by Grue3 on Friday January 10, 2020 @05:05AM (#22009863)
I live in Moscow and far more people use docked bikes than docked scooters. There aren't that many places where you can ride the scooter smoothly so they're only available in the very center of Moscow where a lot of sidewalks have been repaved recently. And half of the year the weather is not suitable for riding a scooter.
Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by blaser-waffle on Friday January 10, 2020 @02:40PM (#22014549)
Same story in Canada. I'm in a big city and the scooters aren't really useful outside of the city center, both because of how the scooters do "zones" but also because hills, bike lanes, and sidewalks are very hit-or-miss in terms of quality and safety.

They're a fun novelty, but not a solution to public transit.

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by yibg on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:54PM (#22008010)
It might be an issue of implementation then, specifically with density. I had a good example of this.

About a year ago ebikes were around in Beijing but not many of them. While I enjoyed riding them (beats traffic here over low single digit KM range and faster than a bike) it was frustrating to have to hunt for them. So while I opportunistically used them when convenient it wasn’t frequent.

Fast forward to now, there are enough of them around that I can pretty much always find one on the current block. Now I use them as my primary mode of transportation ever short distances.

Re:Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 by OkGoDoIt on Friday January 10, 2020 @01:58PM (#22013993)
I own both a bike and an e-scooter and one of the things I really like about my e-scooter is I can fold it up and bring it in with me to a restaurant or my office or wherever else I am going. A bike I have to find a place to lock it and pray it doesn’t get stolen, as has happened to me multiple times in the past.

This isn’t necessarily applicable to a rental market, but as far as personal ownership the e-scooter is just vastly more convenient in a major city with high rates of bicycle theft.