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Re:Work on these things by muzani on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:14AM (#22001316)
I think what society is really missing is this sense of belonging. We're raised to think that wealth correlates with happiness but it clearly doesn't.

History has always formed these loops of prosperity, then spirituality. I mean it's nice not to starve, but I think people would be happier being part of a tight knit tribe who support one another, even more than having air-conditioning and dating apps.

Re:Work on these things by SketchySeaBeast on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:28AM (#22001424)
Could you elaborate on your thinking in regards to loops? I honestly can't think of anything like that. It's not like the Romans were focused on prosperity and then the dark ages were spiritual - as near as I can tell, for the movers and shakers it's always been about power, and for the underclasses it's survival, just with whatever veneer you want to put on it.

In fact it's only recent that the commoner could even aspire to wealth, regardless of whether that actually correlates to ability to achieve it.

Re:Work on these things by muzani on Thursday January 09, 2020 @10:36AM (#22002003)
Buddha is textbook - rich fellow who realizes that it hasn't made life better.

Islam went through many cycles of this. Corrupt powerful pagan Quraish. Spiritual Muhammad and Rashidun caliphate. Corrupt Umayyad Caliphate. Spiritual Abbasid Caliphate. The Ottomans went through this as well. We're historically at a low point with regards to Islamic society.

Third world faces this - many of them have abundant natural resources, compared to say, Europe. But the wealth brings corruption, not prosperity.

I think the Rashidun Caliphate has a lot of good examples - caliphs turning down state gifts, distributing most of the wealth, selling off luxuries like silk, jewelry, and carpets for infrastructure, making sure that their families didn't profit from state funds.

Anything where an individual can benefit unfairly from the effort of an organisation is a form of corruption, as it involves abuse of power entrusted. This includes CEOs overpaying themselves, or government leaders with excessively high compensation. They're making use of their position to skim resources for personal benefit, and sadly, it's a culture now that this is what people should aspire to.

Things usually improve when people can draw a line where they have enough, and allocate excess resources to the rest of the organization. This is usually (not necessarily) triggered by spirituality because there's nobody else to keep the watchmen in check.

Once leaders do this, those down the command chain also do the same. There were plenty of situations where commoners were well off - in Egypt, Rome, China, Caliphates, and so on. I believe we actually have lower social mobility today than in some eras of the past, but it's far from terrible.

I could well be wrong, and encourage those with more understanding of history to correct and give counter examples.

Re:Work on these things by blaser-waffle on Thursday January 09, 2020 @10:14AM (#22001834)
> We're raised to think that wealth correlates with happiness but it clearly doesn't.

Studies show it does, to a degree. Once you hit something like $70-80k the satisfaction levels off.

It's one of those hygiene things -- not having it will make you (or others) miserable, but having it doesn't mean you're good or happy.

Re:Work on these things by muzani on Thursday January 09, 2020 @10:22AM (#22001888)
For the individual, yes.

For a society, I think the culture of making as much as possible has left everyone slightly worse off, instead of slightly better off as we were promised.

Re:Work on these things by harimau777 on Thursday January 09, 2020 @10:57AM (#22002220)
Do you think that trying to get everyone to the 70k level (or the equivalent in their region) has made society worse off?
Re:Work on these things by muzani on Thursday January 09, 2020 @05:29PM (#22006584)
If society was focused on getting everyone to 70k, everyone would be happier. But instead, modern society encourages people to make as much as possible, create as many jobs as possible, and pay as close as possible to 15k.
Re:Work on these things by pseudalopex on Thursday January 09, 2020 @05:23PM (#22006549)
Some measurements of stress and sadness level off. Satisfaction keeps going up logarithmically.
Re:Work on these things by hn_throwaway_99 on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:37AM (#22001490)
Related to this, I recall two issues that could inform his Hong Kong life expectancy point:

1. A recent study that found very high life expectancy "blue zones" were highly correlated with poor record keeping and pensions - the strong implication was that it was mostly fraud. Don't think Hong Kong was one of the areas studied, but I think skepticism is warranted. 2. A common thread I've seen in many longevity studies is that social connectedness is one of the strongest predictors of a long lifespan, and contrarily, "lonely people die young." I'd expect that a very close-knit urban area with relatively low migration (e.g. as opposed to NY or SF where there is so much moving in and moving out) would exhibit this social connectedness.

Re:Work on these things by rusk on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:42AM (#22001537)
I think there's a large undocumented migrant population too, who make up a lot of the working classes and this could skew that stats as well.

EDIT it's a lovely place too, Hong Kong (picturesque, pleasant climate, easy to get around). I'd say that would have a lot to do with it as well, once you can pay the rent ...

Re:Work on these things by rusk on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:40AM (#22001515)
> but it clearly doesn't.

Misery is a very strong inverse correlate however. I'd be given to thinking that a lot of economic activity is driven by the need to escape [EDIT and stay out of] poverty on one end, and a cohort of super-competitive success-addicts on the other. Most other people are quite content in the middle, and want to stay there. It is the threat of penury we should be looking more at than the lure of riches.

Re:Work on these things by zozbot234 on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:27AM (#22001415)
> I think what society is really missing is this sense of belonging.

Social capital is what gives people this sense of belonging - of being in a "tight knit tribe". I think that conservatives understand this a lot better than progressives, who tend to see everything about society in terms of either material conditions (wealth vs. poverty), or zero-sum power relations where one side 'wins' and the other side 'loses'. It's not clear that these matter all that much. Plenty of people throughout history had very little in the way of material resources, and were required to answer to people, institutional frameworks etc. exerting some sort of power on them - and yet, they still found lots of ways to smile and be happy at their life. We should understand how they managed to do that.

Re:Work on these things by muzani on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:33AM (#22001462)
I'm not exactly sure it's "social capital".

My favourite definition of a tribe is that it's a group where everyone gives what they can and takes as little as they need to. Everyone should be willing to give their last slice of bread and be offended at the idea of 'owing someone' for it.

This just doesn't scale well, but it happens in things like gaming groups, married couples, etc.

Re:Work on these things by zozbot234 on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:42AM (#22001542)
Social capital works differently at different scales. By definition, the kind of tribe you're talking about where "everyone knows (and trusts) everyone else" cannot possibly scale beyond 100 members, which today doesn't even cover a tiny neighborhood in a city. But having dense and reasonably stable social connections is quite helpful even beyond that.
Re:Work on these things by tonyedgecombe on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:43AM (#22001543)
My favourite definition of a tribe is that it's a group where everyone gives what they can and takes as little as they need to.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

Karl Marx.

Re:Work on these things by Ar-Curunir on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:29AM (#22001429)
???

If anything, conservatives and liberals, due to their devotion for capitalism, are united in fracturing people and communities. That's just the natural end goal of an economic philosophy that views everything via the lens of corporate profit.

Re:Work on these things by zozbot234 on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:45AM (#22001567)
Capitalism is an economic system centered around market relations, which has little to do with how "people and communities" organize themselves socially. The two issues just have very little to do with each other.
Re:Work on these things by Ar-Curunir on Thursday January 09, 2020 @04:28PM (#22005991)
Capitalism relies on the state to enforce private property rights. The free market then naturally influences your government, which in turn naturally influences how people organize their lives. So yes, capitalism influences how people and communities organize themselves.
Re:Work on these things by jacobush on Thursday January 09, 2020 @10:17AM (#22001850)
Also, capitalism itself needs to be guided, or it will escape and ruin the rules until it's no longer capitalism, except in name only.
Re:Work on these things by muzani on Thursday January 09, 2020 @10:37AM (#22002025)
Wouldn't guiding a free market be opposed to the concept of a free market?
Re:Work on these things by mcguire on Thursday January 09, 2020 @11:39AM (#22002657)
Anti-trust laws, for example. Safety and environmental regulations.
Re:Work on these things by jacobush on Friday January 10, 2020 @05:09AM (#22009882)
Yes. In some sort of ideal world, where corporations would never dream of regulatory capture, abusing a monopoly position, finding ways to keep upstarts out of the way.

In the real world, capitalism is an unstable system. The "winner" gets too close to the state and then tries to shape the rules so they fit the incumbent and discourages everyone else. Boeing and the FAA is a recent high profile example.

Re:Work on these things by icebraining on Thursday January 09, 2020 @07:21PM (#22007312)
That's a very US-biased view. There's plenty of conservatism skeptical and even hostile to capitalism and free markets. It's a quite common position in the Catholic community, for example.
Re:Work on these things by maroonblazer on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:38AM (#22001501)
What kind of research project does that translate to?
Re:Work on these things by muzani on Thursday January 09, 2020 @10:21AM (#22001876)
We're missing a socioeconomic model that isn't communism or capitalism. Socialism seems like an economic patch, but it's not a satisfactory solution. Socialism is sort of like how free range chickens seems nice but only when compared to how horrid the caged ones have it.

A lot of brainpower in the last century went into technological progress, but we have enough computing power, internet, cloud, data to work on this thing.