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Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @02:21PM (#21983607)
Here is a direct example of unions slowing down the little guy in the entertainment industry:

https://youtu.be/LRVwlif6th0?t=171

Niko has to cut costs to make low budget films and the union mandates someone watch the camera feed for the director, completely unnecessarily in the modern era. The film industry is notorious for the boundaries around union and non-union work. Gary Oldman's decline of a role in Star Wars used union rules as an answer:

>Oldman's spokesman is reported to have told the newspaper: "Gary was excited and looking forward to working on the film. The snag is that the movie is being made without members of the Screen Actors Guild. It means Gary would have been working illegally overseas. Out of respect and solidarity with the other members, he could not and would not consider violating the rules of his union."

Unions bring many complications and seeing them as a universal good is a problematic perspective.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:27PM (#21985087)
Good on Gary.

"I don't do non-union work" is a perfectly reasonable position to take.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:52PM (#21985350)
What wealth did he gain from being restrained by union rules? What benefit did he get from being collared?

You can't claim unions lift workers and then rope them in from opportunity with the other hand.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @05:19PM (#21985713)
a decades long career as one of the more respected actors in the world and eventually an oscar.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @05:25PM (#21985782)
Which he obtained from his talent, something he advertised as something he can do and others can't. Unionizing credit for his performances is as the same claiming credit for another man's work that nationalists do.

https://youtu.be/CIaWo-BlBjs?t=74

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @06:24PM (#21986393)
The union doesn't get credit for his performance, he just places value in the union. The point is he's had a tremendously successful career while supporting the union. It hasn't hurt him. He missed out on star wars by choice.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @06:34PM (#21986483)
I asked you what benefit he gets and you listed his 'respected career' and 'eventually an oscar'. You directly answered the question about what union benefits you get from unions with his career. You are changing your reply.

Had he chosen to do nothing that career would never have succeeded. The union did not benefit him his career, his actions did. He had the opportunity to choose SW and did not because the cost of losing union membership was too high. So again, what did the union benefit him? If he was simply choosing to value the union for his own reasons, then you haven't answered the question, you've just shifted the answer to Gary Oldman who is not here to answer for you.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by snarf21 on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @02:29PM (#21983724)
I generally agree. What we do need is better worker protections and consumer protections. Get rid of no-competes. Get rid of right to work statutes. Add mandatory retirement contributions. Add mandatory and standard severance packages.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:29PM (#21985103)
That will just drive more employers towards part time employees and outsourcing.

The latter, I agree with the former reforms.

You also aren't getting this sort of top down reform without obtaining more political power than the upper class. That's not going to happen without better organizing (Union, political movements, whatever).

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:53PM (#21985364)
These utopian goals turn into dystopias.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @05:18PM (#21985698)
They don't. They exist all over and work fine.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @06:10PM (#21986259)
[dead]
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @06:28PM (#21986427)
Attacking appearing of argument instead of it's content is a fallacy.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by Can_Not on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @11:29PM (#21988359)
He should have targeted your cherry picking and hasty generalizations.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @03:45AM (#21989616)
Finding sources to support my arguments is good practice. I do not have the resources to do multi-variate analysis of the problem within the scope of a hackernews thread.

The generalization about utopias is something I've lived through.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:48PM (#21985309)
> Get rid of right to work statutes.

Meaning that you're fine with me being required to join a union in order to work? No. I'd rather have the freedom to choose for myself, even if it means I have to give the same freedom to others.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by snarf21 on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @09:10AM (#21991531)
No, I meant that when you take a job you are given a contract with clear rules about your job and for fixed durations. I was suggesting this instead of unions but this does require legislation.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @02:36PM (#21983825)
The best outcome is the industry self-regulating these amendments into their business practices under the threat of unionizing, rather than actually turning the industry into an institution itself and losing it's creative spark.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by jgon on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @03:30PM (#21984444)
The industry has had roughly 4 decades to make those self-regulating adjustments, how much longer should we wait?
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @03:52PM (#21984678)
Who is waiting? Most people I know that didn't like the conditions got better jobs in other industries. Finance pays well and is cushy in comparison. Architecture visualizations, media jobs, programming roles are easier to find after obtaining the ability to outperform the norms for other industries.

For most of gaming's history it has been a niche product without mainstream appeal. Do you unionize every fledgling industry? No. It hasn't been four decades in the making. The majority of bad sentiment has come in the past five years, exacerbated by a goldrush mentality and kickstarter burns. The goldrush is over, the big projects are paying out massively to employees. Star Citizen has spent hundred of millions on staff and capital and needs to raise more. Epic is pouring cash back into the industry rewarding workers.

There are more people employed in the industry than ever and some see the collective as a route to personal power. I can't agree with that.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by midnightclubbed on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @05:51PM (#21986052)
> For most of gaming's history it has been a niche product without mainstream appeal

Really? So the Atari boom was niche? 500,000 arcade machines sold in 1982 was niche? 30 million Nintendo Entertainment systems in American homes was niche?

It hasn't been a fledgling industry by any reasonable measure for at least 25 years if not much longer.

How many artists, testers and game designers do you know that moved into finance, media jobs, or architectural visualization (very much a niche industry). At least 75% of people working in the video game industry doing skilled and professional work can't easily transfer to a different field in the same way as an electrician cant move in to plumbing.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @06:08PM (#21986239)
I know one in finance and one in arch viz. There are interviews of Bethesda artists looking for work on the side and quoting generous and lazy deadlines for the work. The customer is amazed they can do in two weeks what takes other people a month or more.

Games is not in a position of minimizing all risk. What industry is? If you want a safe job get into defense contracting. Go back to university and retrain like everybody else does.

It's baffling to see this attitude on Hackernews, famous for tech entrepreneurs who have more pivots in their career than a pirouetting ice skater.

Are comic books mainstream? They sold millions of copies, they are still a niche interest. Not until the Wii did games open up to a 'casual' market. With phones it's truly everywhere now.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by Apocryphon on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @06:17PM (#21986331)
Hacker News is not immune to the vicissitudes of society at large, and there is similar discontent against tech employers in non-game industry as well. There has been both sentiment in support of unionization at large tech megacorps like Google [0], and (non-union-related) sentiment against predatory startups that give misleading promises while forcing employees to assume both greater risk and lesser reward. [1] Not to mention there seems to be less hero worship of founders than there was in the past. [2]

There is a generalized dissatisfaction that the wealth generated by tech is not adequately being reached by its workers. Union advocacy is only a component of it. Tech might pay better than other industries, but its workers are just as affected by costs in housing and healthcare, just as everyone else.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21923085

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21865065

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21868022

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21973333

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:31PM (#21985117)
> The majority of bad sentiment has come in the past five years

Literally the first 3rd party gaming company was because workers were unsatisfied with Atari.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:42PM (#21985242)
The key engineers who left Ferrari in '61 became the key engineers that lifted Lamborghini into existence. They didn't start a union and stepped away from deaths of Ferrari drivers and verbal abuse to start something new with Lamborghini. Both companies survived and no unions were started.

https://www.gptoday.net/en/news/f1/207607/history-ferrari-an...

Disgruntled employees are the birth of something new, not a call to clamp down.

Who is calling for tech & gaming unionization because of the first 3rd party gaming company? It's not the majority of bad sentiment. It's not even news.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by midnightclubbed on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @05:56PM (#21986114)
Both Ferrari and Lamborghini are unionized. Indeed the financing that helped start Lamborghini in 1963 was contingent on there being a workers union.

I don't understand your point.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @06:11PM (#21986264)
Lamborghini wouldn't exist had those five engineers unionized at Ferrari instead of leaving.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @05:42PM (#21985943)
I was pointing out that the claim this sort of thing is new is complete and total bullshit.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @05:56PM (#21986111)
Nobody claimed it was new. The majority of this is recent.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @05:57PM (#21986129)
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by forrestthewoods on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @03:32PM (#21984466)
> Get rid of right to work statutes

I would not call taking away a worker’s right to work a benefit for a skilled worker.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by SauciestGNU on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:31PM (#21985120)
"Right to work" is one of those legal principles that follows a dystopian naming scheme. It was lobbied for by the owner class because it allows freeloaders to benefit from collective bargaining without paying membership dues in the union representing them. This weakens the union, with the eventual goal of eliminating the union (and the benefits it negotiated for workers) altogether.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:51PM (#21985343)
Your alternative puts workers in a straitjacket of having to belong to a union to work certain places. You say it's for their good. But all I see is the straitjacket.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by forrestthewoods on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:54PM (#21985385)
And yet the alternative is not being allowed to work unless you donate money to extraordinarily political organizations who lobby for policies you may actively oppose.

Sorry, but I’m going to call the compelled speech option far more dystopian than right to work.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by tomtheelder on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @02:44PM (#21983921)
We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power. Unions can certainly do harm, and you are right that they shouldn't be seen as a pure and irreproachable force for good, but small anecdotes about individual bad decisions made by unions are not useful in discussions about this.

In fact, they play to the already ridiculously anti-union sentiment that the vast majority of Americans (this article is about America, apologies if you are foreign) hold.

Unions can go way too far, and they can do harm, but the overwhelming majority of Americans live so far away from that point that it's not even a fruitful discussion to be having.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @02:59PM (#21984117)
This is a weird claim to make in the games industry. The vast amounts of cash Fortnite made for Epic is being poured back into buying up indie games and supplying a better store for game sales and creating a better game engine that anyone can pick up and use for 5% of sales. It is empowering the little guy way more than could be imagined in the past. Is that 100% of their revenue? No, but it is well above what anyone could hope for 10 years ago. You used to require hundreds of thousands of dollars in licenses to even see the tools used. People are getting good jobs training off these tools as we speak and releasing new innovative products.

I understand working conditions in the US sucks and I hold no bones about fixing them. The union is an infinite tool that will not stop at fixing engineering conditions. It has the ability to own the industry. That is not an outcome I want to see, I'd prefer to give 50% of my salary to whoever wants it than have a union tell me how to run what I do.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by 0x5f3759df-i on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:31PM (#21985128)
>The vast amounts of cash Fortnite made for Epic is being poured back into buying up indie games and supplying a better store for game sales and creating a better game engine that anyone can pick up and use for 5% of sales.

For the sole reason of trying to replace Steam as the dominant store platform on PC. Epic isn't just doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. This will not continue once Epic achieves their goal of buying their way into being the middleman between developers and gamers.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @05:21PM (#21985742)
They don't need to replace Steam, they have 80 million active users from Fortnite alone. Steam has 90 million active users.

Were they to compete with Steam properly they would crush Steam's store feature set. The Epic store is still under-developed compared to Steam by a lot. Regardless of their perceived intent the entire point is that the little guy is being rewarded and the system works even if it appears 'evil'.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by Apocryphon on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @05:52PM (#21986071)
So this is an argument for trickle-down economics within an industry, except used to rationalize fighting unionization, instead of increased taxation.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by friendlybus on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @06:12PM (#21986279)
This is an argument that workers are supported. I make no grand economic philosophy claim.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by username90 on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @02:49PM (#21983980)
> We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power.

No we don't, that is called slavery.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by chobeat on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:06PM (#21984841)
The definition of slavery changed over time. Be sure that salaried worker in a few centuries will be considered a mild form of slavery similar to indentured servitude, debt bondage or coloni's restriction of freedom under the Roman Empire.

"Were they forced to work? Yes and no. What happened if they decided not to work? Weeeeell... if they were rich, nothing. If they were poor, they would have died."

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by RHSeeger on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:45PM (#21985267)
> Were they forced to work? Yes and no. What happened if they decided not to work? Weeeeell... if they were rich, nothing. If they were poor, they would have died

Hasn't that always been true of society, across all government models (or lack thereof)? At best, you don't have the rich that don't need to work... but what are the situations where the vast majority don't need to work (as far back as hunting/gathering).

[dead]
[dead]
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by dang on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @05:30PM (#21996461)
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? We're trying for a bit higher quality level than internet median. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking that spirit more to heart, we'd really appreciate it.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @06:00PM (#21996699)
Please explain the problem with my comment on slavery. The first part is factually accurate, the second is a valid opinion to express.

I was downvoted, why?

You know what whatever. I know better than to ask HN moderation for any sort of transparency or any dedication to actually fostering discussion vs just reinforcing the particularly awful groupthink that dominates this place.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by dang on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @06:15PM (#21996835)
Factual accuracy isn't enough to make a comment substantive, and the point about "wage slavery not being much better" is an empty cliché. We're looking for thoughtful discussion here, not throwaway lines.

I've posted thousands of comments explaining HN moderation—probably tens of thousands, in fact—so I'll have to differ with you on it lacking "any sort of transparency". What would you like to know?

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @06:47PM (#21997024)
> What would you like to know?

What are the actual rules? You are the most arbitrary and least transparent mod I've ever dealt with. You wield the word "unsubstantive" as a cudgel. You seemingly only hold the goal of stifling discussion that might be against the accepted HN positions. The result is board that yes, does mostly lack flame wars. It's also bland and processed and almost impossible to contribute to, and I lay the blame on that squarely on you. The very poor downvote system does not help. Restricting downvotes to high karma users just lets a handful of people dominate discussion.

> "wage slavery not being much better" is an empty cliché

7 million+ working poor. Millions more one unexpected expense away from financial ruin. "empty cliche".

Also could explain to me why this

> > We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power.

is fine. This response

> No we don't, that is called slavery.

is fine.

But my post reaches the bar of unsubstantive flamebait.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by dang on Thursday January 09, 2020 @02:54PM (#22004929)
I asked what you wanted to know, but reading this response, it doesn't seem like you want to know things so much as to fulminate against HN and how it is moderated. I'm sorry you don't like it, and if I saw a path from here to maybe getting you to like it better, I'd be happy to try. But I'm not seeing that yet. It takes a ton of time and energy to answer posts like this, and that investment only makes sense when there's a visible modicum of good faith to begin with—otherwise it just results in twice as much fulmination, which helps nothing, and takes resources away from helping other users.

I can take a crack at replying to your question about those specific comments though. A comment that said only "We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power" would be lame and unsubstantive, but https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21983921 went on to say other things that made for a thoughtful comment, though the generic ideological topic (unions-good-or-bad) is a bad one for HN. I don't see why we would moderate a comment like that.

The reply "No we don't, that is called slavery." is lame and pedantic, but I wouldn't call it flamebait. That is the contrarian dynamic which can't resist pointing out a logical flaw in something somebody said. HN has this all over the place, as does everywhere else ("someone is wrong on the internet"...) They are low-quality comments but they don't typically start flamewars unless there is some other baity element in there.

You, on the other hand, have been posting obviously flamebaity and ideological battle comments as well as fuming about "groupthink" and "wrongthink" and downvoting and how awful everything here is. You might find HN less "impossible to contribute to" if you took its intended spirit to heart. You could start with trying for thoughtful conversation and assuming good faith, as well as the rest of what https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ask.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Thursday January 09, 2020 @05:35PM (#22006642)
> I asked what you wanted to know, but reading this response, it doesn't seem like you want to know things so much as to fulminate against HN and how it is moderated.

and instead of reflecting on that for a minute you will continue on in exactly the same manner.

I was able to contribute to this site for years without issue before you came along. I find the moderation here now arbitrary, heavy handed, and pretty extremely biased.

> You, on the other hand, have been posting obviously flamebaity and ideological battle comments as well as fuming about "groupthink" and "wrongthink" and downvoting and how awful everything here is

Having and expressing any sort of ideology is against the rules. Great thanks.

Higher karma users have the ability to downvote. They use that to enforce their ideology. Anything that goes against the grain too much immediately gets downvoted and flagged. You personally described the my comment on wage slavery being bad as an "empty cliche". That's not condescending low effort flamebait?

You are so entrenched in your own ideology you can't even tell how deep you've gone. Just completely impossible to reason with.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by dang on Thursday January 09, 2020 @08:43PM (#22007760)
> I was able to contribute to this site for years without issue before you came along.

When people go on about how badly they were treated on HN, but omit any verifiable details, I call such comments linkless martyrs [1]. Without links, readers have no way to make up their minds for themselves [2]. The past pattern has been that such claims are greatly exaggerated, leave out critical details, or are made up. Sob stories and tales of injustice are easy to produce, but looking at what actually happened reveals otherwise.

Perhaps your case is the exception? If so, you can easily prove it with links that show how you were posting like this "for years without issue before you came along". pg was 10x quicker to ban accounts than we are, so my bet is that what you're saying is false.

1. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

2. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Thursday January 09, 2020 @09:30PM (#22007921)
oh cool, now I'm a liar too.

> I call such comments linkless martyrs

You take pride in coining cute little phrases like that?

> If so, you can easily prove it with links that show how you were posting like this "for years without issue before you came along".

I really have no interest in playing your games at this point. I explained myself, you dismissed everything I said and seem to have zero interest in an honest conversation. Instead you'd rather pick a line and jerk yourself off about what a way with words you have.

> "wage slavery not being much better" is an empty cliché

Still haven't explained how that isn't unsubstantive flamebait. Smug jerk.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by dang on Friday January 10, 2020 @02:54AM (#22009209)
I realize we're probably past bridgeable distance here, but if there's a way to explain it, I'd be curious to hear what would have counted as a more helpful response.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Thursday January 09, 2020 @01:56PM (#22004245)
No response and more downvotes.

Exactly what I expected.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by dang on Thursday January 09, 2020 @02:51PM (#22004908)
I didn't see your response till now, and the downvotes were from other users.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Thursday January 09, 2020 @05:39PM (#22006670)
> downvotes were from other users.

Well of course they were. High karma users get to decide what is allowed on HN.

It's a pretty bad system.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by unapologetic on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @06:07PM (#21996755)
oh look, downvoted again.

The downvoting system on this site is a really broken by design sort of feature. It's entirely just a manner to ensure the groupthink stays on track.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by tomtheelder on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @03:06PM (#21984200)
Okay yes that's true. Within the bounds of modern capitalism we are at an extreme place.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by forrestthewoods on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @03:31PM (#21984457)
> We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power.

The #1 problem in most cities is too many people are making too much money and it’s driving housing prices through the roof.

The demand for skilled labor is astronomical. I would not call that absolute extreme power of capital over labor.

Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by subtlpropaganda on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:12PM (#21984913)
Urban housing scarcity is mainly caused by speculation and corrupt zoning laws.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by Apocryphon on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @07:23PM (#21986863)
It's neither here nor there, but Oldman dodged a bullet by not participating in The Revenge of the Sith.
Re:Major union launches campaign to organize video game and ... by embeddedpro on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @03:09PM (#21984233)
I see unions good for established low skill workers.

Grind the years and that will lead to sucesss. No innovation or additional learning needed. Just wait.