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Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by munificent on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @02:23PM (#21828296)
> the kind of state where you get lost in your work and love what you do.

I don't disagree, but one of the challenges is that humans have become really good at synthesizing devices that artificially give you that sensation at the expense of future regret. We call them "games".

For me, playing a good videogame (I'm particularly prone to Minecraft and roguelikes) exactly gives me that delightful incremental reward lost-in-the-process flow state. It's so good that I can lose myself in it for hours.

But then when I look up and see I've spent the entire night on it, I regret the lost opportunity to do something more meaningful for myself and others. So, for me, I try to seek out activities that blend enjoying the process and enjoying* the outcome. Too much of the former feels like a waste of time. Too much of the latter feels inauthentic and like a grind.

There is a sweet spot in the middle for passions that do involve some chore and grunt work, but are also joyful and leave me with an artifact I feel good about and can share with the world. That positive outcome helps motivate me to get through the un-fun parts.

Of course, if you don't feel regret, then by all means game away. But I do. Beyond a certain point, playing games feels like eating junk food. Gloriously satisfying during, but unnourishing and regretful afterwards.

Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by kharak on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @03:53PM (#21829316)
Games, reading and doing various sports is what keeps me having a good life. I'd have loved to able to find meaningful work, but that never happened. Interestingly, this is freeing. If my work will never be important, I'm free to just enjoy life while it lasts. Maybe that perspective helps.
Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by Roark66 on Thursday December 19, 2019 @06:34AM (#21833982)
That. Exactly.

Also, I disagree with the whole idea of "Don't Try" in context of many pursuits. Perhaps it applies to writing as described in the article, but a lot of stuff is worth doing because it creates value for others. That value is created only if we're successful. How can one engage in such activity without having the end goal as target?

IMO the best of both worlds is to have a good life by enjoying it as parent poster said (with games, reading, sports) and when possible putting all you have into trying to achieve your goals even if the possibility of success is remote. How would the Wright brothers achieve powered flight if they didn't try. It wouldn't happen organically as a side effect of their work.

Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by omilu on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:42PM (#21831616)
This comment gave me some peace.
Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by darkteflon on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:17AM (#21833546)
Lovely comment.
Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by macromagnon on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @03:27PM (#21829055)
I love roguelikes too but I tend to burn out in less than a week on games. I can't play rpgs for 60 hours like I used to do.

The older I get the easier it is to predict the end result of an activity and the easier it is to not start things that won't produce long term fulfilment.

Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by piva00 on Thursday December 19, 2019 @07:09AM (#21834162)
You summarised my feeling towards most AAA games these days. I bought a PS4 Pro a couple of years ago that saw almost zero use, bought some good games, started them and... Got demotivated playing as I knew what would be the end result: grind this, get this skill, get that ability, follow this quest, this will open up the story, etc. I sold it in less than a year.

Even when the process was enjoyable (as in playing Souls-like games) because your own skill is improving it was very lacklustre compared to my other more recent hobbies (such as music), it gave me a sense of accomplishment that is very narrow, it only applies to that particular game and it isn't a skill that is broadening me as an individual. And then I realised I didn't like this kind of game anymore.

I'm still very much up for playing short games (or games I can play in a burst and let it sit), couch multiplayer/co-op games, etc., games that are an activity while socialising but single-player grind-y games aren't my thing anymore, they are too time consuming for my life nowadays.

Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by rpastuszak on Thursday December 19, 2019 @03:14AM (#21832983)
Having the same feeling when playing many AAA rpgs, maybe except the Witcher series or the titles from Obsidian. And, I used to spend 100s of hours trying to complete every possible gameplay in FO2.

What I really enjoy now are smaller indie titles with shorter gameplay and more focus on artwork, like Journey, Little Nightmares, A Way Out, Night in the Woods, Vanishing of Ethan Carter.

Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by homonculus1 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @03:03PM (#21828777)
You raise some interesting points here. I think that deep certainty that your time was well-spent comes a lot from others' appreciation.

If my friends inhabited and appreciated the structures I build in Minecraft as much as I do then it would be just as fulfilling as when I give them something I made with my hands. As it is it does feel slightly empty even though I enjoy it so much that I sketch plans up while I'm at work.

Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by asdfman123 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @03:21PM (#21829000)
I suppose the key is that your hobby satisfies some deeper need your soul wants, like intellectual, artistic or emotional growth and expression.

I know some people say they find growth and meaning through the storylines in video games and I'm not trying to invalidate that, but I find I personally get way more rewards from reading a challenging book or learning an instrument or developing a hobby or something.

Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by scandinavegan on Thursday December 19, 2019 @04:54AM (#21833453)
Growth and meaning in video games doesn't only have to be due to the storylines. There's also mastery, like playing Tetris and becoming better and better, or fighting Dark Souls bosses without taking damage.

In the Dark Souls community there are many challenge runs, for example finishing the game without leveling up your character, or by using only unupgraded starting weapons. When you play the games for the first time, you struggle even with a fully upgraded character and weapon, but after a while you don't need them. This gives a great sense of accomplishment.

Another need, related to mastery, is competition and overcoming opponents. When you start out playing Rocket League or Fortnite, you usually don't do very well. But as you play more, you become better and can do more things in game. Each new personal level of skill has its own challenges. Some people actively use the practice mode in the games to improve certain mechanics, others just play a lot of matches and improve that way. I would view a (to you, not compared to the pros) perfect Rocket League goal as something expressing both artistry, skill mastery, and an expression of your personal playing style. If you want to become good at either game, you also need intellectual growth, because you need to read guides online or watch YouTube videos to learn how to do new things, and then you try it in game until you learned them yourself.

Actually, even though they get critisised a lot because of loot boxes, skins in online multiplayer games also serve as personal artistic expressions. Designing an 80s-themed Rocket League car, or a car as disgusting-looking or silly-looking as possible, and showing it off to your teammates and opponents is definitely an expression of your person.

Also, to me, no one needs to see your creations for them to be artistic personal expressions. If your hobby is to draw or write short stories, that's a way for you to express yourself even if you never show them to anyone. It's the same with your house in Minecraft.

Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by asdfman123 on Thursday December 19, 2019 @09:06AM (#21834959)
It's honestly hard for me to understand. My parents made me feel so guilty for spending any amount of time on the computer growing up that I can't untangle it. But I respect your perspective - thanks for sharing.
Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by cylentwolf on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @04:18PM (#21829588)
I think we should just limit games like junk food to moderation so that we can keep working on productive things. The trick is pulling yourself away from it. The plus side with junk food is that your stomach will rebel if you eat too much where as your mind rebels only after you have stopped and realized you have played too much.
Re:“Don’t Try”: The Philosophy of the Hardworking Charles Bu... by GarvielLoken on Thursday December 19, 2019 @09:15AM (#21835040)
I think you are right about games. I play a lot of games, but I also have more physical hobbies than I have weekdays to practice them. Which means that all my gaming time is usually a couple of hours after training when I'm tired anyways or they are on weekend nights where I can be productive during the daytime if I choose.

And if for whatever reason don't train for a period and only game I get a little of what you are describing.