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Re:Toyota believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future by Aloha on Saturday December 14, 2019 @12:25PM (#21790654)
I can see a hybrid vehicle with both batteries and fuel cells as a future option however. I don't think we're doing to slay this problem with just one technology.
Re:Toyota believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future by Reason077 on Saturday December 14, 2019 @07:13PM (#21793373)
> ”I can see a hybrid vehicle with both batteries and fuel cells as a future option”

All fuel cell vehicles already have batteries, of course.

But if you mean plug-in fuel cell hybrids, I don’t think that will happen.

Manufacturers of fuel cell vehicles need to create demand for hydrogen in order for hydrogen filling networks to expand, in turn stimulating demand for more hydrogen cars.

But if you put a plug on the car, owners will prefer to use the batteries for their daily driving, only using expensive hydrogen occasionally as a backup or for long-distance driving. This would greatly reduce the demand for hydrogen, so filling networks would struggle to be viable.

Also, from an engineering perspective, if you’ve gone to the trouble to add a plug and charging equipment, you already have an EV. Why then add expensive, complex fuel cells, bulky hydrogen tanks, huge air filters and all the rest of it? It’s just going to be easier and cheaper to use a bigger battery!

Re:Toyota believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future by bsder on Saturday December 14, 2019 @09:33PM (#21794077)
Nope. Hybrids are already starting to phase out.

Unified fully electric on batteries is so much cheaper that once it achieves critical distance (somewhere north of 150 miles per charge), hybrid adds far too much manufacturing and engineering cost.

Re:Toyota believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future by tonyedgecombe on Sunday December 15, 2019 @02:11AM (#21794928)
If we are to do that on a big scale it required massive infrastructure investment. Something we are nowhere near yet. Plugin hybrids offer a useful stepping stone.

VW have been making a lot of noise about their ID range lately but if you look at what they have in the pipeline it's mostly hybrid.

Re:Toyota believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future by kwhitefoot on Sunday December 15, 2019 @01:22PM (#21797836)
Not as much as people think. The existing grid, in the UK at least, can cope with only minor changes, so long as cars are smart enough to react to pricing signals as they charge. This is quite simple to do as the grid already implements a market system with prices available in real time.

The big challenge will be providing charging for people (in the UK about 40% of the population) who do not have the opportunity to park their car off road. Quite a lot of this demand could be met by simply providing normal domestic sockets with RFID controlled breakers on posts at 6 m intervals along urban streets and in every public parking space. This is relatively simple and scalable and does not need large capital expenditure to get started.

Re:Toyota believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future by hutzlibu on Saturday December 14, 2019 @06:39PM (#21793186)
Why on earth was this downvoted?

Because I think that concept already exists as prototypes.

A small fuel cell for example can serve as a range extender.

So for short drives you charge and use the batterie (cheap energywise). For long ranges the fuel cell adds power to charge the batterie. Methan or hydrogen is fast refueld and has a much bigger energy storage capacity compared to batteries.

Re:Toyota believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future by _ph_ on Saturday December 14, 2019 @06:53PM (#21793281)
If you look at the range of Teslas, it is close to the one of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. The problem is, that hydrogen pressure tanks are large. Compare a Mirai to a Tesla Model 3. Even the recharging of the Tesla is close to the speed of hydrogen stations. (The refueling with hydrogen is faster, but then there are about 15 minutes in which the fuel pump has to repressure itself)
Re:Toyota believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future by hutzlibu on Saturday December 14, 2019 @06:58PM (#21793302)
I am not saying the concept is superior right now. I am saying it is worth thinking about. And when you have the fuel cell only as addition, maybe you don't need the big pressurised tanks.

Maybe a small methan tank.

Maybe even then it is still not worth it regarding the extra weight and cost. I don't know. But I do know that the involved technologies are advancing and combining things makes sometimes sense.

edit: and the market is big. there are also people living in remote areas who sometimes want and need range extension in which case they could pack in some extra tanks.

Re:Toyota believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future by tigershark on Saturday December 14, 2019 @12:35PM (#21790731)
Why on earth would you need that for a normal car?
Re:Toyota believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future by taneq on Sunday December 15, 2019 @07:36AM (#21795928)
Because the power density for fuel cells is pretty meager, so you use batteries as an energy buffer to smooth out the demand.
Re:Toyota believes hydrogen fuel cells are the future by Aloha on Saturday December 14, 2019 @03:05PM (#21791821)
same reason you'd have a plug in hybrid.