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Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by diogenescynic on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @11:04PM (#21759480)
Why was it necessary to change student loans to being non-dischargeable in bankruptcy? That is a recent change and it shifts the burden from banks having to evaluate the loans they are making which would likely mean fewer loans and thus less money earned from interest. It seems like student loans should be treated like any other unsecured loan. And really student loans shouldn’t even be necessary for public universities but that’s another point.
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by gwright on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @11:25PM (#21759588)
Because it is an unsecured loan. It would be too easy for a newly minted graduate to declare bankruptcy, discharge the loan, and move on with their life. The only entity stupid enough to loan money to students in that world would be the government.
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by swagasaurus-rex on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @11:43PM (#21759656)
The missing wisdom here is that maybe the government should take on a high-risk, societally high-reward investment like education.
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by tptacek on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @01:10AM (#21760012)
I think you're using the word "risk" idiosyncratically. Student loans are unsecured, and most people are done with them by the time they're 23. If they're dischargeable in bankruptcy, for a lot of people, it's irrational not to default on them; the bankruptcy is gone long before your credit history matters.
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by gwright on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @12:09AM (#21759769)
That sounds nice but it requires there to be a definition of "societally high-reward education". That is difficult. Even if you find some methodology to identify the quality programs that have an appropriate "societal reward" you have to deal with the problem that the costs for those programs will inevitably rise in lock step to the amount of tax dollars used to subsidize them. (See https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/staff...)

I would suggest the federal government get out of educational loans entirely. Let the private loan market evaluate and take the risks, probably with an income based repayment contract that favored degrees/programs that are likely to lead to reasonable incomes.

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by pinkfoot on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @03:39AM (#21760661)
Steve Jobs had an English degree. Would most STEM obsessed industrialised file that under 'favoured'?
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by gwright on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @12:53PM (#21764925)
Who knows? Like I said that is a difficult decision and I'd rather those decisions be made by individuals. They can decide if taking out a loan to get an English degree is worthwhile. And if they can't find someone to loan them the money, they may have find a different approach.
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by vinniejames on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @12:54AM (#21759948)
The more you "favor" particular degrees, the faster you you saturate the market with new graduates. The eventual outcome being those jobs are no longer in high demand, nor pay a decent salary
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by gwright on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @12:52PM (#21764902)
Yep. That is called "the market". And I think the government shouldn't get in the way and "favor" anything. Let people decide their own careers and interests and let them balance the pros and cons.
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by listenallyall on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @02:48AM (#21760446)
It does, to an extent. Stafford and Perkins loans are direct from the government.

This article says 90% of student loans are from the gov't, so it appears it currently does exactly what you're suggesting. https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/02/student-loans-governm...

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by gwright on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @12:57PM (#21764963)
The loan programs don't adjust the interest rates for the risk/reward involved. As a taxpayer I don't want to fund someone for 4 years in college and then have them default or be be unqualified for a job that would make them self sufficient.

I'd rather have non of my tax dollars allocated that way, but if I don't have a choice then there should be some attempt to invest in people and skills that produce self-sufficient citizens.

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by coryrc on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @03:30AM (#21760623)
12 years is enough, if we wanted it to mean something instead of day care.
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by eli_gottlieb on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @04:01AM (#21760766)
So what? If making a loan would be stupid, that loan shouldn't be made.
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by sokoloff on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @07:20AM (#21761758)
We could return to a world where only the upper and upper middle class could go to elite colleges.

Despite the fact that be more likely to help than hurt my family, I think it’s undesirable societal policy.

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by eli_gottlieb on Thursday December 12, 2019 @12:44AM (#21769548)
> We could return to a world where only the upper and upper middle class could go to elite colleges.

Or we could just socialize college and abolish the distinction between "elite" and "not elite".

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by gwright on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @12:58PM (#21764980)
Right, but that doesn't stop the government. Student loans are not approved based on any risk/reward mechanism that I'm aware of (currently).
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by dillonmckay on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @05:46AM (#21761281)
There has got to be a happy medium between 7 years and life.
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by shantly on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @11:16PM (#21759531)
I'm guessing long-term unsecured debt in five to six figure amounts is ordinarily really hard for an 18- to 22-year-old to get, no matter what they're spending it on, and if they somehow manage it the interest rate would be very high. Making it non-dischargeable was likely intended to fix those problems. (not saying it's a good idea, but I'd imagine that was the plan)
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by swagasaurus-rex on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @11:41PM (#21759654)
Nobody else is saying it so I will: Non-dischargeable loans have resulted in spiraling student loan debt.

Lenders have no reason not to give out these loans as they will be repaid even if it is sub-prime.

Schools have no reason not to jack up rates because students are given largely unlimited access to loans.

Both parties have been repeating this and raising their incomes for decades ever since student loans have become non-dischargeable.

Instead of ranking loans based on repayability, lenders have divorced themselves from financial reality because government intervention.

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by listenallyall on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @02:55AM (#21760477)
>> Nobody else is saying it

People have been saying this for many, many years! And using as an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by rhino369 on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @11:16PM (#21759532)
>Why was it necessary to change student loans to being non-dischargeable in bankruptcy?

To keep interest rates on student loans low and to make sure the loans are available to 18 year olds with no credit history.

There was a real problem with medical students racking up huge sums, declaring bankruptcy when they were making low money during residency, but then making 6 figure salaries a few years later.

>It seems like student loans should be treated like any other unsecured loan.

Nobody loans 18-22 tens of thousands (and 22-26 years olds hundreds of thousands of dollars) in unsecured loans.

And look at the interest rates for other unsecured loans. My credit card rate is 19%. Earnest gave me LIBOR + 3% on 200,000 dollars of student loans.

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by azhenley on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @11:48PM (#21759682)
But federal student loan interest rates aren't low. Undergrads' loan options are determined by their parents' income, regardless of whether their parents are providing financial assistance. Graduate students can't take out subsidized loans at all anymore, even if they are on food stamps.

My loan rates are 6.55%. After 10 years of continuous school, that really, really adds up. I even had scholarships but they wouldn't cover my dorm, the mandatory meal plan, or summer classes so that I could finish undergrad faster. I looked to refinance with 3-4 different companies, like SoFi, but the lowest they offered was around 7% despite my very good credit score.

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by plorkyeran on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @02:21AM (#21760329)
6.55% is low for an unsecured loan to someone without assets. Unsecured loans to people with good credit that can be discharged in bankruptcy have rates that are 3x that.
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by listenallyall on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @02:51AM (#21760460)
>> without assets

and without an income

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by dillonmckay on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @05:51AM (#21761304)
So, to lump medical degrees discharged in bankruptcy as a risk to undergrad loan financing is a bit disingenuous.

Not addressed to you, personally.

Lots of options here.

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by the_watcher on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @11:15PM (#21759527)
> Why was it necessary to change student loans to being non-dischargeable in bankruptcy? That is a recent change

It was in 1976, not very recent.

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by techsupporter on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @03:08AM (#21760538)
> It was in 1976, not very recent.

The person to whom you are replying is referring to the poorly-named Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act (BAPCPA) of 2005. That law expanded the exemption from discharge in bankruptcy of student loans to be any student loan, including privately-issued student loans, not just ones issued by the government through a federal or state program.

This is why you see companies like SoFi running around offering screamingly low rates on student loans. Because they are private, those companies need not offer any of the protections a government loan offers (income-based repayment, forbearance options in the event of loss of income or disability, and so on) but retain the power to garnish tax refunds and the loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by vonmoltke on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @08:57AM (#21762308)
The switch to non-dischargeable loans came along with cutting banks out of the federal student loan system. Non-dischargeable loans are issued and owned by the Department of Education, and only them.
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by pnutjam on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @09:21AM (#21762536)
This predated that change. Sallie Mae use to directly fund student loans, now Navient only manages them for the Dept. of Ed.

Edit: forgot to say non-dischargable goes back way before that switch. I have personal experience around 2001, but I'm pretty sure it goes back to the 80's.

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by sokoloff on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @07:25AM (#21761786)
> And really student loans shouldn’t even be necessary for public universities but that’s another point.

Set aside the education component entirely. It costs money to be housed, fed, entertained, and consume other things. That’s getting paid for somehow and that somehow is often borrowing for undergrads.

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by Clubber on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @11:12PM (#21759515)
>Why was it necessary to change student loans to being non-dischargeable in bankruptcy?

I believe it was something along the lines of people borrowing for law degrees then discharging the debt right after graduation with the knowledge gained from their new degree. I'm sure it was done in other degrees as well.

Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by dillonmckay on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @05:53AM (#21761314)
So, nothing to do with undergraduate degrees?
Re:Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, W... by Clubber on Wednesday December 11, 2019 @08:18AM (#21762049)
>I'm sure it was done in other degrees as well.