"people being shipped off in train cars reminiscent of pre-WWII photos that I have only learned about in school."

There is absolutely no corroborated evidence whatsoever that this happened. Just like the alleged rapes. I'm not saying that these things did not happen, but absolutely no credible evidence on these claims up until now.

> absolutely no corroborated evidence

There is video and photo evidence from multiple sources on Twitter. There have been extensive reports of victims like British consulate worker Simon Cheng being abducted to the mainland and being tortured. Obviously there wont be any "corroboration" from the PRC state security agency or police...

No, there isn't. Look at https://twitter.com/osinthk, they do a really good job getting to the bottom of this stuff.

Cheng was not abducted to the mainland; he was arrested on the mainland side of the boundary crossing at the high-speed rail station in Kowloon, coming back from Shenzhen. The fact that there's a border crossing in downtown Hong Kong is its own issue, but his case can't be called an abduction (unlike the case of the booksellers a few years ago).

Anyway, please stop spreading falsehoods, there's enough of that going around.

So, your argument that it wasn't an abduction, is because he wasn't taken from Hong Kong, but from Chinese soil?

The claim upstream for which there's no evidence: > "people being shipped off in train cars reminiscent of pre-WWII photos that I have only learned about in school."

There's a difference between one person getting arrested and mass deportation. One should be able to criticize the former without falsely claiming that it's the latter.

Correct, he was detained on the mainland side of a boundary crossing.

This is correct and I appreciate that but even though he was on the chinese side of west kowloon hsr many would still consider it something of an abduction.

Even clarifying to people he hadn't made it across the border yet, it still feels different than if he was picked up in Shenzhen.

"There have been extensive reports of victims like British consulate worker Simon Cheng being abducted to the mainland and being tortured."

Did you even see his interview with the BBC? Legally would not say anything about his hiring of prostitutes. No medical evience of the torture he claimed. The only hard evidence that was provided were CCTV tapes of him going into local massage joint. You would think that if he didn't obtain the services of sex workers he would come out and say it. Interesting that the British also let him go.

I've seen those videos. You have to be kidding if that's sufficient evidence to say they are being shipped off to Chinese black camps. As for the alleged rapes - the evidence is even more lacking. The primary source used is a facebook account using a pseudonym who claims he's an emergency doctor who then says he "swears" that he's telling the truth.

Everyone needs to be held to a basic standard of logic and scrutiny, not a double standard simply because one might agree with the ideals of a group. There are numerous ludicrous claims on the government and police side. But the same stands for protesters as well.

That massage joint is quite popular with HK locals. We cross the border and get hotpot and cheap (legitimate) massages. I've been there for a few times. Most of the masseuses are middle aged men and women.

> The only hard evidence that was provided were CCTV tapes of him going into local massage joint

provided by who? Would Chinese authorities provide evidence against themselves?

Nobody is being shipped off in train cars. That rumor was debunked.

Is it? Do you have a source for this?

https://twitter.com/osinthk looked into it. They're very good on fact checking.

HK has been in a bad economic situation for many years. Without mainland China's support, it's even worse. The tension in the HK society is at the breaking point. Young generation has less opportunities to improve their life quality.

People who support CCP believe that it is the greedy capitalism caused the problem. Implementation of the CCP regime can rebuild HK. People who support democracy believe that it is the CCP iron fist caused suffocating.

No one is backing down. It ended up with a civil war.

Humans repeat their mistakes generation after generation.

>Without mainland China's support, it's even worse.

The Mainland hasn't been supporting Hong Kong as much as taking it over and adding to it's historic role as a gateway for FDI into China, it is now using it as a gateway for businessmen and CCP to ship money out of China into safe assets (into Hong Kong and overseas).

What the CCP has done to Hong Kong is basically neocolonialism.

It's an extraordinary claim that mainland has been supporting HK. What support do you mean by this?

Economically, a lot of businesses profit from mainland Chinese tourists (some mainly thanks to them). Reduced travel in light of this year’s events has caused a serious drop in sales of luxury products, for example.

Yesterday I talked about just that with an HKer who works in marketing. Democracy supporters acknowledge that this trend is hurting the economy, though on bright side they welcome businesses starting to target local long-term customers more.

Business is bad.

The number of restaurants and bars I see closing on an almost daily basis is getting sad. My friends in the F&B industry here confirm that they're hurting. Bad.

Hospitality is hit even harder with hotels at 30% occupancy and many having to offer rates at 50% or higher discounts, and having to lay off staff.

HK has been over-reliant on these businesses to provide employment for a long time. Most of the F&B outfits that are closing are fly by night outfits which would only work when everyone in CBD has more money than sense. It will be a good thing if this leads to us diversifying our economy a bit more.

> Reduced travel in light of this year’s events has caused a serious drop in sales of luxury products, for example.

If the CCP had let HK be autonomous as they agreed this wouldn't have happened.

Hong Kong imports a lot from the mainland: food, energy, water... of course those don't come for free and Hong Kong is simply able to pay more than other cities in the region. In 2009, the Hong Kong government offered to reduce water consumption when Guangdong was hit by a drought, but that offer was rejected, probably because selling the water to Hong Kong was so much more profitable.

So it's not exactly altruistic support, but the economic entanglement means that if the mainland decided to embargo Hong Kong, the effect would be devastating.