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Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by slowhand09 on Monday December 02, 2019 @10:28AM (#21683182)
Funny this article coming from the Guardian which I believe is a British publication. And London being the only city in the top 10 for surveillance outside of China. https://www.comparitech.com/vpn-privacy/the-worlds-most-surv...
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by detritus on Monday December 02, 2019 @10:44AM (#21683363)
My local corner shop has about 16 CCTV cameras in it, covering as many angles in the shop as they can. This is common. Very common.

I'm totally OK with that kind of apparently 'pervasive' CCTV coverage - we're not talking government-owned networked cameras linked up to face/gait/whatever recognition systems or deep cold storage banks, we're talking small store-owners keeping an eye on junkies and thieves.

The oft-regurgitated "x cameras per thousand people" narrative tends to overlook obviousness like this.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by superkuh on Monday December 02, 2019 @12:40PM (#21684653)
Imagine each one of those cameras were being held by a person. How would you react then? This is the true nature of the situation.

Surveillance Camera Man made it explicit, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP5ZVPwP7bg : people hate being watched. Doing it with machines is an exploit for the human psyche.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by mc32 on Monday December 02, 2019 @12:57PM (#21684861)
The video on those systems usually is turned over every month. The video isn’t accessed unless there was an event.

These systems aren’t integrated into larger systems to help track and ID people.

That said, some of this could change if many shops go to nest or ring solutions... but most shop owners will not keep video footage indefinitely in the cloud as it’d be cost prohibitive.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by superkuh on Monday December 02, 2019 @01:32PM (#21685253)
Yep. That's exactly the kind of rationalization I'm talking about. You don't know any of that for sure for each machine camera and certainly don't know what a random person will do with a taken video.
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by Joe-Z on Monday December 02, 2019 @02:39PM (#21686001)
Amazing how you got downvotes for that. I was just thinking why some people reacted so aggressively towards the guy filming. And tbh he behaves really annoyingly. If he really wanted to teach people a lesson about constant surveillance this certainly doesn't play in his favour.

But I think it also has to do with the fact that at least with him people actually have someone to be mad about. As opposed to their usual mode of surveillance where they are being filmed by a 'security' camera (hey, it's security people! nevermind if it doesn't actually make anything any safer) operated and owned probably by their boss or someone who they are not on equal grounds with.

It makes me kind of sad.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by Joe-Z on Monday December 02, 2019 @02:43PM (#21686050)
Do you think the people being filmed would've behaved less aggressively if the camera man had told them that he only keeps footage for a month, doesn't run tracking and ID-ing software on it and only ever re-watches it when there was 'an event'?
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by therealx on Monday December 02, 2019 @02:47PM (#21686090)
I bet the moment unlimited storage is cheap, shop owners will do it.
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by EliRivers on Monday December 02, 2019 @03:44PM (#21686684)
people hate being watched

So what's the deal with the selfie obsession and the instagram obsession and so on? Is it that people dislike being watched live? Or is it that people dislike other people having control of the footage?

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by big_chungus on Monday December 02, 2019 @05:48PM (#21687927)
I don't understand that, either. I don't use instagram, nor do I take "selfies"; I regard both as profoundly narcissistic, privacy concerns aside.

That said, the reason people get depressed by platforms like instagram is that they don't show real life but a photo-shopped, re-touched, carefully-curated version of life. People only see what others allow them to see.

Furthermore, I know that most of the footage taken by a surveillance camera is discarded. Most of the footage filmed by humans is created for a specific purpose and will be used. Someone else will likely watch it.

Finally, if I walk into a grocery store with a camera, I am going into someone else's establishment informed. If someone walks into a classroom and films me (like in the "Surveillance Camera Man" videos), there was no such agreement, implicit or otherwise.

I really do hate being watched, and hate others taking video. I hope surveillance cameras go out of use, and people stop recording everything on phones. However, there is a difference between that and some silly two-bit social network.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by desks_dos on Monday December 02, 2019 @06:20PM (#21688188)
I'd say it's the latter. The selfie obsession is all about curating how you present yourself and your lifestyle. No one would want an IG or Facebook account with someone else at the helm.
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by detritus on Monday December 02, 2019 @01:32PM (#21685250)
> people hate being watched

in the old days we'd have God watching over our conscience.

now we have cctv.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by asdff on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @03:19AM (#21690755)
Crime never occurred in the good old god fearing days, huh?
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by detritus on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @09:30AM (#21692491)
Crime doesn't occur these days, huh?

Funny how some people choose to react when the concept of 'God' is dropped into a response, irrespective of the author's belief or sincerity.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by chopin on Monday December 02, 2019 @02:14PM (#21685742)
I prefer god. He at least doesn't talk to other people about his observations.
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by magduf on Monday December 02, 2019 @03:23PM (#21686464)
I prefer CCTV. Then we can actually go look at the footage and see what really happened, instead of arguing pointlessly and having no neutral reference.
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by yaur on Monday December 02, 2019 @11:06AM (#21683643)
I helped build a product a while back that helped those owners give access to the local police. Depending on what the owner wanted to do this could be just the street cameras or everything.
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by 1996 on Monday December 02, 2019 @12:53PM (#21684809)
Do you sleep well at night?
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by dang on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @03:26AM (#21690778)
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by 1996 on Saturday December 14, 2019 @10:13AM (#21789836)
Sorry you see that as personal attack. It is not mean to be directed to one person. It is mostly against the lack of ethics in the profession at large.

I can understand less and less how other programmers can do this kind of work.

Everyone got to put food on the table, but if the money comes from destroying personal freedom, I could not sleep at night and I would take any other job.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by yaur on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:22AM (#21711003)
Actually I do. I don't feel bad about writing any legal software. If laws suck they should be changed.
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by Rooster61 on Monday December 02, 2019 @10:48AM (#21683404)
Mind showing me a camera that you can definitively say the government (or other actors) don't have the potential for backdoor access to?

I certainly can't.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by detritus on Monday December 02, 2019 @10:53AM (#21683457)
Nope, and in case of crime, most local police forces can simply walk into local stores and request recordings from the last X days, so quite why they'd need illicit backdoors, I don't know.

I'm also entirely fine with this.

Backdoors in cheap CCTV being accessed illicitly at a mass-level is an entirely different problem, and one which I'd agree would need questioning.

I doubt there's much value in that concern for another decade, until the majority of CCTV cameras are ultra high resolution/30+fps, which they're not.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by ryandrake on Monday December 02, 2019 @02:57PM (#21686204)
Not to mention camera technology that only records “junkies and thieves” and not the thousands of innocent people going about their day. There is nothing ok about pervasive, constant surveillance of law abiding people.
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by i_am_proteus on Monday December 02, 2019 @12:41PM (#21684677)
Any CCTV system that's air-gapped from the internet (records to local storage only) reasonably meets this definition.

Yes, there are possible exfil paths, but not ones that can reasonably be executed on a large scale. Realistically, the danger from break-in and hard drive theft (or warrant/subpoena) is greater for the average user.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by semi-extrinsic on Monday December 02, 2019 @01:25PM (#21685178)
Raspberry Pi Camera Module?

Unless you believe governments have backdoored SSH, I would say it's good. Definitely not a turnkey solution though.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by jammygit on Monday December 02, 2019 @12:22PM (#21684460)
That sort of acceptance is why amazons ring is so dangerous: there are new business models around aggregating and automatically processing and mining that footage
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by gibolt on Monday December 02, 2019 @01:42PM (#21685370)
Wouldn't be hard to hook them all up to the government's backend, if it one day became mandated. For safety.
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by vkou on Monday December 02, 2019 @01:57PM (#21685558)
> And London being the only city in the top 10 for surveillance outside of China. https://www.comparitech.com/vpn-privacy/the-worlds-most-surv....

While I've no doubt that London is highly surveilled, that data is, to put it bluntly, horse droppings, and should never be cited.

If you look at the sources they cite for stats like "There are 2,985,984 cameras in Shanghai" (Wow, look at the precision on those figures! Six decimal points, if we express it in scientific notation!), you will find that they take a random unsourced number from a blog post from 2013, then add 20% to it 6 times over, because they assume (Also unsourced) 20% year-over-year growth.

Meanwhile, that same source claims that there are only 3,600 cameras in San Diego. As anyone who's ever been in a convenience store, bank, airport, or workplace can tell you, that's complete baloney. You can probably visit enough businesses in a normal day that will have you walk past 3,600 cameras. (And the source for that number? A news article about the city government installing 3,000 new intersection cameras. Apparently we are to believe that across all the businesses, government buildings, and private residences of San Diego, there are only 600 cameras.)

I'm not sure if the authors in question are just incredibly stupid, or incredibly intellectually dishonest... But my money is on the latter.

tl;dr - please think critically about your sources, especially when they reinforce a pre-conception that you hold. Most of the 'data' you can find on the internet is garbage.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by whycombagator on Monday December 02, 2019 @01:19PM (#21685104)
> London being the only city in the top 10 for surveillance outside of China

Only if you ignore Atlanta, GA at #10.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by Symbiote on Monday December 02, 2019 @10:58AM (#21683520)
The source for the London figure is this article: https://www.cctv.co.uk/how-many-cctv-cameras-are-there-in-lo...

Unfortunately, the source for that article costs £100.

Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by sorokod on Monday December 02, 2019 @12:02PM (#21684264)
Why would the situation in London influence your perception of the article's content?
Re:Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under co... by saiya-jin on Monday December 02, 2019 @10:57AM (#21683510)
I think London is there mainly for the amount of CCTV cameras everywhere. The difference between this and place like China is how these tools are used - British society is fair and democratic to a high degree, in China this was never the goal. Of course priorities might change over time.