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Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by tmsh on Friday November 29, 2019 @04:25PM (#21666880)
Good points. Agreed.

I just think (like you say with very little real information) that there’s a risk in being biased by the government’s complaint.

Occam’s razor suggests a person, who is good at ethereum development, might tweet his NK visa out of ignorance about the consequences of what he’s doing v. some elaborate criminality worthy of 5 years in prison. And maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt v. defending the government given its track record of sometimes missing things.

Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by tptacek on Friday November 29, 2019 @04:40PM (#21666947)
In or about April 19, VIRGIN GRIFFITH, the defendant, traveled to the DPRK to attend and present at the “Pyongyang Blockchain and Cryptocurrency Conference” (the “DPRK Cryptocurrency Conference”). The US State Department denied GRIFFITH permission to go to the DPRK to attend the DPRK Cryptocurrency Conference due to the DPRK Sanctions, but GRIFFITH nonetheless traveled to the DPRK, via China, to participate.

The statute he violated has a "willfully" mental state requirement, meaning Griffith would potentially have a defense at trial if he could convince a jury he had no idea what he was doing was prohibited by sanctions. From the complaint, it seems unlikely he'd be able to do that.

Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by jessaustin on Friday November 29, 2019 @08:09PM (#21667831)
Is that egregious name-mangling in the original? Wow.
Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by tptacek on Friday November 29, 2019 @08:16PM (#21667861)
I typed it out by hand, so it's almost certainly my fault. I'm too lazy to confirm, but just assume it's me.
Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by mapgrep on Friday November 29, 2019 @05:00PM (#21667082)
Even the press release from the accusers says he allegedly violated the statute. It is not established he broke any law until he is convicted in court. And court != justice.gov != ycombinator.com.
Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by tptacek on Friday November 29, 2019 @05:01PM (#21667085)
Is it really your impression that readers of HN threads need to be reminded that HN threads aren't binding legal process?
Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by asdfasgasdgasdg on Friday November 29, 2019 @07:12PM (#21667596)
They always say allegedly. It does not reflect a lack of strength in evidence or belief that they said that in this case.
Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by akerl_ on Friday November 29, 2019 @04:34PM (#21666917)
You can do something foolishly that is worthy of jail time. But in this case he appears to have asked ahead of time if this behavior was problematic, was told that it was, then did it anyways.
Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by ShorsHammer on Friday November 29, 2019 @09:10PM (#21668071)
To me that's the kicker. He's plainly had doubts, confirmed those doubts were real and yet went ahead regardless.

Without that he'd surely be finding a lot more sympathy, regardless of personal opinions on NK.

Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by nordsieck on Friday November 29, 2019 @04:39PM (#21666941)
> Occam’s razor suggests a person, who is good at ethereum development, might tweet his NK visa out of ignorance about the consequences of what he’s doing v. some elaborate criminality worthy of 5 years in prison.

Did you not read the post you originally replied to?

> Unsurprisingly, the State Department told Griffith he could not in fact present or attend the Pyongyang Conference on Blockchain and Cryptocurrency.

> Regardless, Griffith attended and presented at the Pyongyang Conference on Blockchain and Cryptocurrency.

Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by diego on Friday November 29, 2019 @04:34PM (#21666922)
What does it matter what we think of him? He is being accused of a crime, and presumed innocent. If it goes to trial, then the jury will have access to all the evidence. You and I don't.
Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by asdfasgasdgasdg on Friday November 29, 2019 @07:13PM (#21667600)
He's presumed innocent legally. The presumptions of the legal system are not binding in most other contexts, internet discussions being one example.
Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by tmsh on Friday November 29, 2019 @04:40PM (#21666948)
Edited to reply to other comments:

Good points. But yeah US AG would allege more severe violations if they had occurred so we can presume they didn’t. Ie they insinuate he was ‘warned’ about going to NK. But what was the nature of the warning?

It’s wrong to charge someone for up to 20 years if the warning you made wasn’t clear on the penalties and we can presume that was the case because they would have stated if that were the case (ie we warned him he would face up to 20 years in prison).

It sounds like he has been nothing but cooperative with authorities. And again Occam’s razor says they’re taking their frustrations with controlling him out via this complaint (meant to also deter others from doing similar things).

But yeah my problem is the rush to judgement. There is no reason to believe he was aware of the laws he was violating and the consequences and that’s scary to me as us citizen.

Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by tptacek on Friday November 29, 2019 @04:47PM (#21666988)
In this case it seems like you're the one on the wrong side of the razor here, unless one of the relatively straightforward factual assertions in the DOJ's complaint is simply false.
Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by tmsh on Friday November 29, 2019 @04:53PM (#21667032)
Perhaps yeah. I just sense a lot of genuine ignorance on his part (otherwise why wouldn’t he lawyer up or why tweet his visa). He strikes me as an engineer who believes in crypto and didn’t even realize the severity of what he was violating. When you also consider he re-tweeted Trump’s endorsement of NK etc. I could see how he might’ve been genuinely confused. But yeah I guess the court might discover more of what’s going on.
Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by tptacek on Friday November 29, 2019 @04:57PM (#21667070)
This is the kind of stuff people used to say about Hans Reiser. We have a powerful rooting interest for computer software nerds.
Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by confeit on Saturday November 30, 2019 @11:13AM (#21670534)
Two things I find plausible: He was under public and private surveillance, if not for his work, then for his first-degree contacts and targeting by other countries. Imagine the US state coming to you for a friendly chat: "Sir, we are aware you want to go to North-Korea to present on this 'blockchain' and 'smart contracts' thingamabob. This is a very bad idea. We only allow certain journalists and those futhering our national interest to go, you should have googled that.". "Hey, that's unfair! You really mean I am not allowed to go present public data on a conference, just because I happen to have a U.S. passport and hacker knowledge?". "Well, national interest wink-wink?" "No, thanks.". It would be fair to describe that as "sought permission and was denied."

Also of note that the complaint does not seem to have the actual presentation the guy did. The FBI must have been really nervous and interested in a certain line of questioning and topic. According to statement the audience left with a better understanding of blockchain and smart contracts then they had before. I don't think the guy held a presentation about "How to use Cryptocurrency-1 to launder money and evade sanctions". The 1 unit of Cryptocurrency-1 transfer from NK to SK could have been a hacker asking themselves: "Is this possible? Can I actually do this? What happens?". Well in this case you get the FBI-equivalent of blowing out the power in the neighborhood.

Of course, after the conference, some shady NK government employees came up to him and asked him more pointed questions (almost like an agent at the early defcons singling out Asian participants). It states they discussed "proof of work", not that the suspect was given a free (or paid) consultancy gig. I think they had nothing about the conference, so they had to wriggle all this out of him during an interview. FBI damn good at this. They got all the facts they needed to make this a convincing complaint. But reality is not straightforward.

I think you can think of plenty of other computer software nerds who got fucked by the law for doing what they do, and not murdering their wives.

Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by tptacek on Saturday November 30, 2019 @11:19AM (#21670554)
Complaints rarely have things like "the actual presentation the guy did". They can supersede the initial complaint with a more detailed indictment, or just stick with the one count they have and introduce their evidence at trial. I think you're reading tea leaves here.
Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by confeit on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:07PM (#21670909)
- What was the title of your talk?

- "Blockchain and Peace", I've given it before.

- Does any of the talk mention (looks down at paper) "smart contracts".

- Probably yes. There is a slide on trusted lending circles in India.

- Can you explain to me, when someone sets up one of these (looks down at paper) "smart contracts", can they benefit from this?

- Well, yes. Or they can lose. You see --

- Thanks.

> GRIFFITHS presentation was called "Blockchain and Peace", and he discussed, among other things how a blockchain technology, including a "smart contract" could be used to benefit the DPKR.

Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by tptacek on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:35PM (#21672759)
I don't know what you're trying to say here, but according to the complaint, Griffith asked the State Department if he could present at this conference without breaking the law, and they told him he could not. He then went and presented anyways. He probably could have presented nothing but slides of cute baby otters and still been charged.

It is a truly weird set of circumstances. If he could plausibly have claimed not to know about the sanctions, this would be a harder case for the DOJ, because the statute requires willful violation. But if the complaint is accurate, Griffith did essentially everything he could to wreck his defense. We'll see, though.

Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by pvg on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:57PM (#21673512)
He probably could have presented nothing but slides of cute baby otters and still been charged.

The complaint does spend quite a bit of time trying to establish what took place was an actual 'technology transfer' and his intent to violate sanctions in some way beyond merely traveling and ottering there. And the charge itself is conspiracy, with all of the extra bits they have to show for that attached.

I have zero expertise in this beyond nerdgooglery but the fact this dude's previous adventures seem to have included bananas shit like 'running a web-to-tor gateway and trying to sell the logs to governments' makes me wonder if there isn't more to this that's even dumber and worse for him.

Equally bewildering are the motivations and intent of the North Koreans. Surely if you actually want someone's actionable insights on violating sanctions, you're not going to do it in public at a conference. "American expert declares cryptocurrency use to circumvent imperialist oppression promotes peace" might be all they really needed from him. It's a cliché but 'useful idiot' seems kind of plausible, with quadruple emphasis on 'idiot'.

Re:Arrest Of U.S. Citizen For Assisting North Korea In Evadi... by tmsh on Friday November 29, 2019 @05:25PM (#21667180)
Good point.