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Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by DennisP on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @12:48PM (#21650131)
I'm a huge Tesla and Musk fan but I'll point out the feds are investigating spontaneous fires, not those associated with collisions. I saw a video of this happening with a parked Tesla. How many gasoline vehicles spontaneously burst into flame?

Of course it's still rare, and I'll also mention that the Model 3 has a newer battery pack design and is not being investigated.

Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by imglorp on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:05PM (#21650297)
> How many gasoline vehicles spontaneously burst into flame

Many, I think, mostly maintenance related. Frequent causes involve old gaskets or cracked fuel lines dripping onto the exhaust manifold, right on the side of the engine.

Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by DennisP on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:09PM (#21650328)
Well, true, good point. I think much fewer while parked and turned off. But I do remember now my old VW Bug manual, which detailed at least four ways the little beast could catch itself on fire.
Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by hef19898 on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:52PM (#21650760)
To be honest, the old VW Bug was technically a less than perfect car already back the day. A nice car, for sure and I love quirky old cars. But technically not perfect.
Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by DennisP on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:07PM (#21650913)
Yeah "technically not perfect" pretty much sums up my experience with it :)
Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by hef19898 on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @03:19PM (#21651663)
On the other hand, four ways to self-ignite is an engineering feat in itself!
Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by tomatotomato37 on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:44PM (#21651268)
I mean it was essentially a mass produced shitbox designed to be affordable to someone living in the economic clusterfuck that was interwar Nazi Germany, you can't expect miracles
Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:41PM (#21651247)
>Many, I think, mostly maintenance related. Frequent causes involve old gaskets or cracked fuel lines dripping onto the exhaust manifold, right on the side of the engine.

You're not wrong that fuel does sometimes catch fire but it is very rare for a fuel leak to cause a fire on its own. It usually happens after a fire starts elsewhere.

Fuel system integrity in crashes has been scored in crash tests for a very, very long time (I recall reading about it when I was reviewing some microfiche with crash tests results of 70s pickups) so OEMs have been trying to build secure fuel systems for a long time and have gotten pretty good. With cross flow cylinder head designs (which every engine today has) there is no reason (it would be a waste of material to plumb it) to have fuel on the same side of the engine as the exhaust. The routing between the engine and the vehicle body basically always (i.e. I know of 0 exceptions but can't prove one doesn't exist) go out of their way not to run over exhaust. Fuel systems rarely have gasketed connections, almost everything is sealed with O-rings.

Mature EV designs probably catch on fire less than ICE designs but not really for any of the reasons you specified. Fuel fires mostly come from crash damage to fuel tanks where the crash also leaves the vehicle overturned. Most fires come from electrical systems not related to the drive-train. Even engine fires are rarely fuel, animal nesting debris is a far more common cause.

Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by jhayward on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:44PM (#21651273)
> How many gasoline vehicles spontaneously burst into flame?

Ford recalled 8.7 million cars for spontaneous fire risk.[1] And that's just one case.

It happens more often than you'd think, and coverage of it in media tends to be subdued. Automotive is the largest source of advertising dollars for many media markets.

[1] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-04-26-mn-63066-...

Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by danso on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @04:17PM (#21652215)
Using the numbers from the article you linked, and this WaPo article with more details [0]:

2,000 cars in the U.S. and Canada were believed to have had fires related to the ignition switches, which were installed in 23 million Ford vehicles. This is a failure rate of about 0.0087% overall, although Ford ultimately argued that it would only need to recall a subset of the vehicles with the ignition switch: 8.7M vehicles.

There are at least a dozen [1] Tesla fire incidents, and 720,000 Tesla vehicles sold through 2019 Q2 [2], which is a failure rate of about 0.0014%. So Tesla has a lower rate, but not by an order of magnitude, because Tesla has sold far fewer vehicles than Ford did over roughly the same number of years. So it seems justified for NHTSA to take a serious look into the issue.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1996/04/26/f...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#Sales

Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by OnlineGladiator on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @03:02PM (#21651490)
Comparing modern technology with decades old technology and claiming it's a fair comparison for safety standards is wildly disingenuous.

How many modern vehicles spontaneously burst into flame? I could easily believe it's orders of magnitude larger than for Teslas, but when you make comparisons like you did it just discredits your entire argument.

Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by jhayward on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @04:09PM (#21652165)
Ok, I provided one example. It's on you to prove the point then. Please provide relevant facts proving your case. Prove my point is wrong.

Oh, and the majority of present-day ignitions in automobiles are still the exact same mechanical interlock switching types used since the 60's. Higher-end vehicles have solid state switching, but it's not the majority of vehicles.

Also:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/bmw-recalls-million-vehicles-fire-...

Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by OnlineGladiator on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @04:17PM (#21652217)
You made a claim, not me. I just said your argument is flawed. I didn't say you're wrong - I believe you're probably right. But you didn't actually provide any data for your claim.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla...

Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by jhayward on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @04:20PM (#21652234)
Perhaps you could contribute positively to the discussion rather than just taking badly aimed potshots. You objected, you do better.
Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by OnlineGladiator on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @04:28PM (#21652296)
I consider criticizing an argument to be a contribution - I did not even say you are wrong. It seems you want me to provide a clearly detailed argument for why you are wrong, but I don't have that because I don't even believe you are wrong. I haven't looked at the data - I just looked at your argument.

Anyway, agree to disagree I guess.

Re:Federal safety agency launches probe of Tesla battery fires by greglindahl on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:48PM (#21651326)
Here's an article from last April about thousands of non-crash car fires in a population of 6 million cars: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47782247