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Re:Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia by knolax on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @12:41PM (#21650039)
But concepts like "Russian" and "Ukrainian" are time period specific. I think GP is saying that the area has been Russian-majority every since when the distinction between Russian and Ukrainian came into existence.
Re:Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia by jevgeni on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @12:52PM (#21650172)
I think Crimean Tatars might disagree.
Re:Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia by vogre on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:22AM (#21655769)
Native Americans or Basques or Serbs in Kosovo can disagree with some of western politics, but who do really care?
Re:Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia by jevgeni on Sunday December 01, 2019 @06:34AM (#21674990)
Because if somebody does a bad thing, then everybody can do it, right! /s
Re:Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia by brutt on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:30PM (#21651136)
Distinction between Russians and Ukrainians started after rename of (Kievan) Russia into Ukraine in 1908, when delegates from whole Russia Empire made decision to change name, to move away from Moscow. After Soviet Revolution, Ukrainians started Great Ukrainization, with it peak in 1929. At it peak, 81 millions of Ukrainians (Russians) and 77 millions of Russians (Russish) were counted in 1926. This was perceived as great threat to Soviet Union, because Ukrainians wanted their own, independent from Moscow, country. To tame Ukrainians, genocide was started, known as Holodomor, which killed 7 millions of adults (accepted by RF) and 23 millions of children (not accepted by RF) in 1932-1934, which are hidden in losses in WWW2, which are raised from 12 millions to 42 millions. Also, 20 millions of Ukrainians were written as Russians at Kuban and Crimea, so number of Russians jumped from 77 millions to 97 millions. So, at next people count, 97 millions of Russians and 29 millions of Ukrainians were counted. Problem solved. To tame Ukraine furthers, Ukrainian language was forbidden to use, and Ukrainian elite is (still) killed regularly.
Re:Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia by vogre on Thursday November 28, 2019 @08:07AM (#21657008)
That's modern propagandistic oversimplification of the Great Hunger, which devastated agricultural parts of Soviet Union, including Russians and Ukrainians.
Re:Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia by brutt on Thursday November 28, 2019 @08:42AM (#21657239)
It was prohibited to talk about Holodomor at times of Soviet Union. Actual number of victims is still top secret of Russian Federation. Archives, which has huge historic value, are destroyed in 2010, 70 years after Holodomor, instead of opening for public. If you have detailed information about Holodomor, please share. Currently, we use recorded witnesses and sporadic documents to study it. Also, graves of victims are found at rate of about 2 new mass-grave per month in Summer, for decades.

All recorded witnesses share same main narrative: it was year with high yield, but everything edible, even in very small quantities, like handful of seeds, was confiscated by state multiple times per month, until people starved to death.

It's not a Great Famine, like in 1921. It's Holodomor ("Mass-murder by Famine").

Witnesses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMTnkeksUMk More information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5YjztNdRwk

Re:Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia by osullivj on Thursday November 28, 2019 @08:56AM (#21657349)
Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands is excellent on the Holodomyr. He cites various sources estimating the victim count at 3M to 10M, and suggests 6M himself IIRC. He also details Stalin's orders in 32 and 33. The NKVD confiscated grain. When all the grain was gone, they confiscated seed grain, making it impossible to plant for the following year. And they confiscated the cattle too. Snyder constructs a strong argument to the effect that this was deliberate mass murder by Stalin.

And then Stalin launched the Great Terror in 37. Snyder estimates the death count as 750K.

In the West we have a propaganda hangover from WWII - the "Uncle Joe" view of Stalin. Many wonder at what was going on in Hitler's mind. For me Stalin is far more incomprehensible. Utterly cold, cynical and calculating. Must have been some kind of sociopath or psychopath.

Re:Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia by brutt on Thursday November 28, 2019 @10:28AM (#21657938)
Russian Duma confirmed 7 millions of victims at 02.04.2008, then Russian FSB destroyed archives of 1926 census in 2010, to hide real number of victims.
Re:Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia by vogre on Thursday November 28, 2019 @09:35AM (#21657617)
It's all true, but it was not anti-Ukrainian crime commited by Russians. It was anti-Russian crime commited by Bolsheviks.

Every agricultural region with Russian(Ukrainian or Belorussian included) population suffered, not only Ukraine.

Re:Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia by brutt on Thursday November 28, 2019 @10:24AM (#21657905)
No witnesses to confirm this theory. As far as I know, Ukrainians and some other minorities were targeted with Holodomor.

Number of Russians jumped from 77 millions to 99 millions between 1926 and 1939. It doesn't looks like genocide.

Russians were supported by government. Villages of dead Ukrainians were granted to Russians, including free transfer by rail road from central Russia to Ukraine, free seeds, free equipment, and free cattle, confiscated by government prior to that.

Re:Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia by vogre on Thursday November 28, 2019 @12:21PM (#21658869)
According to the Encyclopædia Britannica, "Some 4 to 5 million died in Ukraine, and another 2 to 3 million in the North Caucasus and the Lower Volga area."

Russia had very traditional society at that time, with large number of children. If you have 5 kids, and two dies from commie-induced hunger, the population would still grow and it would still be genocide.

Re:Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia by cpursley on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @04:59PM (#21652588)
Holodomor was terrible. There's a very sombering museum in Kiev covering this horrific and intentional mass murder.

Holodomor Genocide Museum Lavrska St, 3, Kyiv, Ukraine, 02000

https://maps.app.goo.gl/NFibayzi54uRPLyu6