News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by galfarragem on Saturday November 23, 2019 @09:44AM (#21614330)
Society deify successful people when in reality they are nothing more than serial lottery winners. For every "Ronaldo" there are a myriad of people trying to get there that will end their life as losers because they made an high-stakes bet and lost. The truth in unconfortable and nobody wants to listen about it.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by icelancer on Saturday November 23, 2019 @02:37PM (#21616005)
>> Society deify successful people when in reality they are nothing more than serial lottery winners

This is absolutely false and a terrible thing to perpetuate. Work ethic has the highest controllable coefficient to success as an output. Luck exists and the universe is probabilistic, yes, but it is not non-deterministic.

This self-lashing of our community and amongst the populist movement that is growing in popularity in the EU and US is ridiculous, reducing the sum total of human achievement into lucky chance rather than actually understanding the probabilistic universe and knowing that while our actions do not wholly determine our fate, they play the single largest role we have control over, and as such, it would be better to believe the myth that we have full control over our destiny rather than this ridiculous concept that luck controls ~100% of circumstance.

Probability theory needs to be taught in primary school, apparently, because for members of even this community, the fallacy of determinism and binary outcomes run rampant.

Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by petra on Saturday November 23, 2019 @03:32PM (#21616348)
>> it would be better to believe the myth that we have full control over our destiny rather than this ridiculous concept that luck controls ~100% of circumstance.

Why think in black and white ?

We have a lot impact on our lives, but there's also some luck involved, especially if we want to achieve extreme things.

Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by viklove on Monday November 25, 2019 @06:07PM (#21633872)
> reducing the sum total of human achievement into lucky chance

Not the sum total of achievement, just a single individual's achievement. An individual's achievement can indeed be attributed ~100% to luck. For every Einstein there are hundreds of equally brilliant geniuses who died picking cotton in a field.

Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by confidantlake on Saturday November 23, 2019 @04:02PM (#21616522)
I believe genetics is more important than work ethic for being a pro soccer player.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by TwoHeadedBeast on Saturday November 23, 2019 @05:24PM (#21617037)
You need both. To be the top one percent of what you do, you need natural ability and dedication.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by confidantlake on Saturday November 23, 2019 @06:24PM (#21617308)
You absolutely do, but I think there are a lot more people who have dedication than have talent.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by semiotagonal on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:34PM (#21615259)
This is why having a social safety net is so important. If society can put a floor under how badly people can lose, they'll feel more free to try low-probability high-payoff endeavors.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by pm90 on Saturday November 23, 2019 @03:26PM (#21616315)
This is possibly the greatest argument for social safety nets ever made, really.

The economy of today is so efficient and supply chains are so effective at moving things to people who need them, that it seems incredibly stupid to not use it to provide some kind of basic necessities to every human being, no questions asked.

If the US were to do this today, there would be more innovation, less misery, a supercharged economy as you've increased the purchasing power of millions of people overnight...It a fucking no brainer. And cutting taxes rather than providing more benefits seems like the most stupid way to run a country I've ever seen in my life.

Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by prirun on Saturday November 23, 2019 @11:16PM (#21618313)
So if you spend 14 hours a day for 5 years on a computer project that becomes useful, and a lot of people want it and pay you for it, you are willing to fork over most of that to the government since they provided you with the basic allowance that let you pursue this project, and your success is how they fund a basic allowance for everyone - you included.

While your friend, who did nothing for 5 years, maintains the same standard of living that you do.

I guess this could work, but to me, the level of "disinterest" required to be okay with this result is even more rare than genius.

Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by BigJono on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:28AM (#21618972)
Nobody on the planet has ever gone "oh fuck me I only made 300 million with my extremely successful business instead of 600 million. Well what a waste of time, I shouldn't have ever started it."

No rational person that isn't already well off would take a 1% shot at 1 billion over a 10% shot at 100 million.

Progressive taxation and social safety don't stifle economies, they make them thrive. They act as a negative tax on risk, and create a framework where actors are free to pursue higher EV bets without worrying as much about utility value. Literally the entire point is to create more pie for everyone.

Bludgers getting "free money" is just a side effect. You're not paying for them with your taxes, you're paying into an insurance fund with all the other innovators. Except this fund is +EV, subsidized by all the other countries in the global economy that aren't taking the same gains. You're the one getting the free money, and the leaners are taxing some percentage of that.

The only reason every successful country in the world isn't already doing it is because of this unintuitive "common sense" optic that you (and about a billion others, literally) are propagating: that somehow it breaks the rules of "fairness". The reality is it's got absolutely nothing to do with fairness, it's about maximizing the bottom line, just like in business. Governments don't give a shit about individual people, nor should they (at least not at the expense of society).

Also, I'd guess most first world countries could easily (and do) provide a world class social safety net without going over 50% taxation in any bracket, not even billionaires. Your example only applies if you're talking about taxation in the 70-100% range.

Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by saagarjha on Sunday November 24, 2019 @12:52PM (#21622021)
> While your friend, who did nothing for 5 years, maintains the same standard of living that you do.

Honestly, is this such a bad thing? Why do we incentivize innovation by promising people a basic standard of living? We reward people who take risks with something better than that anyways, so I see no problem with giving people not willing to take those risks something lesser than that “for free”.

Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by friedman23 on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:30PM (#21615236)
> For every "Ronaldo" there are a myriad of people trying to get there that will end their life as losers because they made an high-stakes bet and lost.

For every "Ronaldo" there are a small amount of moderately successful players playing soccer for a good living.

The myriad is the group of people that are coasting their way through life trying to put in as little effort as possible and naturally they don't succeed.

Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by astrodev on Saturday November 23, 2019 @09:48AM (#21614351)
To be fair, Ronaldo is known for exceptional work ethic.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by georgespencer on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:02AM (#21614439)
That's kinda the point. Work ethic and obsession are not enough: you have to also win a series of lotteries -- genetic and environmental -- to succeed in his field.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by rumanator on Saturday November 23, 2019 @03:07PM (#21616185)
> That's kinda the point. Work ethic and obsession are not enough: you have to also win a series of lotteries -- genetic and environmental -- to succeed in his field.

Ok, you've heard of Cristiano Ronaldo. Yet, have you heard of Dani?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dani_(footballer,_born_1976)

Like Ronaldo he was launched int Sporting Clube de Portugal's first team when he played for the club's U17 team. Unlike Ronaldo, Dani didn't had a heart condition. Unlike Ronaldo, Dani had more appearances in his first year in the first team, and was quickly picked by WestHam and Ajax.

Unlike Ronaldo, Dani had a notoriously poor work ethics. Unlike Ronaldo, Dani's impressive start was squandered and he went nowhere, he achieved nothing and has since been forgotten.

Work ethics is the deciding factor. You may have won the genetic lottery and be a bonafide ubermensch but if your work ethics suck then you'll quickly be surpassed by those lesser talented but more hard working than you.

Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by adnzzzzZ on Saturday November 23, 2019 @06:14PM (#21617267)
I mostly agree with you but "work ethics" is also partially genetic. It's defined partly by a big five trait called conscientiousness which has a fair percentage of its effects not explainable by the environment or random chance.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by rhlsthrm on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:10AM (#21614476)
Yes, but work ethic and obsession are the absolute baseline you need.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by philwelch on Saturday November 23, 2019 @03:12PM (#21616226)
Most professional athletes aren’t obsessive just because they have a weirdly specific passion for their sport. They’re obsessive because they’re pathologically competitive. There’s stories about eg Michael Jordan buying a ping pong table and obsessively practicing at ping pong because he had a teammate who beat him at ping pong once and he wasn’t able to let it go until he beat the guy in a rematch. Obsession can come from many sources.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by malnourish on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:37AM (#21614620)
I think even that point is debatable depending on how you define success.

If the definition of success is wealth or notoriety, there are certainly people who achieve it without those traits.

Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by icelancer on Saturday November 23, 2019 @02:44PM (#21616056)
The fact that people become successful and/or notorious due to luck does not invalidate the fact that work ethic and your efforts play the largest controllable role you have. To focus on pure chance outcomes is unproductive and nonsensical.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by jiux on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:36PM (#21615279)
Those do help.

Have you given thought to whether these are the absolute baseline...or actually the consequences of practices more fundamental?

Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by pmoriarty on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:10PM (#21615120)
I find it sad and disturbing that so many people worship being a workaholic.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by friedman23 on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:30PM (#21615242)
People worship success. Turns out to be better than other hard working people you need to work extremely hard.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by pmoriarty on Saturday November 23, 2019 @08:09PM (#21617685)
Success (by which most people mean financial success, fame, or winning in some competition) is certainly worshipped.

However, just being "a hard worker" in itself is considered a virtue by many people.

I hesitate to call it the Protestant Work Ethic or the Puritan Work Ethic, as it's far from limited to Protestants or Puritans, but that's really what it is. The harder you work, the more virtuous you are considered to be, and working less is considered sinful or lazy (in other words, unvirtuous and blame-worthy).

Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by fzeroracer on Saturday November 23, 2019 @02:36PM (#21616000)
Being better than other hard working people can also involve simply kicking the ladder from underneath you, playing the social status game or making bets at the edge of the law and shoving that risk onto other people.

And sometimes no matter how hard you work, you're one of those people under the rungs.

Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by Ididntdothis on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:16AM (#21614507)
Most top athletes have excellent work ethic but they also have natural ability. No amount of work ethic can compensate for lack of natural ability. You absolutely need that to get to the top.
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by chongli on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:06PM (#21615091)
I think pg is trying to argue that passionate disinterest is different from work ethic. For a person like Ronaldo, all of the off-field training might be enjoyable. If it is, then is it really work ethic? Or is it just Ronaldo doing what he wants to do and would be doing anyway, if there were no such thing as money?
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by agumonkey on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:01PM (#21615053)
Maybe the serial lottery winning is what society subconscious worships.. they know that even with insane amounts of dedications, the others failed when a few particular ones got "lucky".
Re:The Bus Ticket Theory of Genius by inerte on Saturday November 23, 2019 @02:59PM (#21616140)
That reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCsPz0GYGJM "What streaming on Twitch has done to my life" - I remember crying while watching, it's heartbreaking.