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Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by high_derivative on Friday November 22, 2019 @02:38PM (#21609211)
This is a pet peeve of mine as well. A lot of undergrads are not really looking around any more. Universities offer their first data science courses in year one. Undergrads mapping out their paths towards becoming research scientists with dollar signs in their eyes.

I think this is not wise career bet at all. There will always be spots for a select few 'pure ML' grads, but at the post phd level the really good jobs are getting pretty thin unless you come from the right adviser + right school + right publication track.

On the other hand, if you add a secondary useful skill, like having a really good understanding of distributed systems, or networking, or databases, or embedded systems, or being 'just' a solid overall software engineer, you (i) have something to fall back on if ML dreams do not work out, and (ii) have an edge by being just the right fit for specific teams, while also still competing in the general pool.

I think there will be a rude awakening on this in 3-4 years for many.

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by asdfman123 on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:12PM (#21609557)
That's true, but how many people in the field started out with the right specialty to begin with?

They might be disappointed graduating post-ML bubble, especially if they have their hearts set on half a million dollar salaries, but they'll do fine with a PhD in CS.

Then again, I'm not part of the SV world, so YMMV.

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by WalterBright on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:03AM (#21612575)
> That's true, but how many people in the field started out with the right specialty to begin with?

What's hot in technology changes all the time. The smart strategy for an undergraduate is to:

1. cover the fundamentals

2. take the honors track (where the professor and the students want to be there)

3. avoid "hands-on" classes, which you can learn on the job as required

4. take at least 3 years of math. Really. Don't avoid it. If you can't do math, you can't do engineering or science.

As for me, my degree is in Mechanical Engineering, with a side of Aero/Astro. And yet I work on compilers :-)

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by nine_k on Saturday November 23, 2019 @01:13AM (#21612747)
Yes, always play dual-class, so to say. For every pair of important fields X and Y, there are numerous people who can do X very well but can't do any Y, and vice versa. If you do both X and Y well enough, you are at a huge advantage.

Trivially, being good at frontend coding and at UX design (cognitive aspects, etc) helps. Being good at designing software and being good at talking the language of your business is super helpful, this what's required at the director / VP Eng level.

And yes, do take the math. After just 2 years of university math (as an embedded systems major, I had to later study myself to grab some missing algebra, some category theory, etc, to grasp SICP on one hand, and Haskell on another. This helped me become seriously better at writing and understanding code in industrial languages.

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by cellular on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:55PM (#21615408)
I will say that I noticed sometimes the honors courses, in college, were taught by the absolute worst professors.

I have a theory it was because, "they are honors students, they'll learn the subject regardless, and we need to put this bad teacher SOMEWHERE".

I once got out of a differential equations honors class because it was very obvious the first week, that the teacher was awful. Later, my fellow honors students told me how "lucky" I was to have switched. They were suffering through the course, while I was learning and enjoying my new class.

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by nloladze on Saturday November 23, 2019 @04:07AM (#21613204)
Never went to college but I can agree with everything you said. I would add to actually go out and build something. A portfolio is immense and has opened doors for me otherwise that never would be.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by maxresdefault on Sunday November 24, 2019 @04:47PM (#21623677)
Could you expound on #4 some more?

Would you recommend a specific branch of math?(discrete, linear algebra, etc.)

Also, which math or general skills/fundamentals would you say has helped you the most when implementing compilers?

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by nravic on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:39PM (#21615290)
I've followed the same path, out of curiosity do you mind if I PM you asking a few questions? I'm a couple months out of undergrad and I'd like to pick your brain a bit.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by WalterBright on Saturday November 23, 2019 @05:19PM (#21617005)
sure
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by cuddlybacon on Friday November 22, 2019 @05:13PM (#21610683)
> A lot of undergrads are not really looking around any more.

My friend is doing a CS degree now and is being told by profs that you won't get a job without an ML background.

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by parsimo2010 on Friday November 22, 2019 @06:34PM (#21611219)
Speaking as faculty myself, the only job advice that you should listen to from an academic is how to get a job in academia. Even the ones that had a job in industry prior to their academic job have a reason for preferring their academic job. Their firsthand knowledge of the industry is stale at best, and their current information is all hearsay.

If you want to get a job in industry, you need to get advice from alumni that have (recently) gotten a job in the industry you are interested in.

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by atomicity on Friday November 22, 2019 @08:14PM (#21611744)
The newly hired faculty at my school have mostly been ML/AI people. While it seems completely wrong that ML is needed to break into industry, is it true that research roles strongly favor ML right now?
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by parsimo2010 on Friday November 22, 2019 @09:02PM (#21611926)
I'd say that with some caveats, a freshly minted PhD in CS/stat/math/etc. with an ML dissertation will have an easy time finding an academic job. The caveats are that you might not get the job you really want. You might have to do a post doc first. Even if you don't have to do a post doc, you might not be at the most prestigious university, might not start out as tenure track, and might not even be in a CS/stat/math/etc. department.

You could end up at a medical school or a business school, a ton of mediocre PhD's take these jobs because Stanford and MIT never called them back. The medical and business schools think they hit the jackpot- they know they got someone mediocre, but at least they found someone. The mediocre PhDs usually end up happy because they found a job and medical and business schools usually pay well.

I'd say that a lot of the jobs that favor ML are from schools/departments that are playing catch up and trying to cash in because they saw a wave of grant money going to ML research. They are either smaller and less prestigious, or interested in the application to their field, rather than any direct interest in ML itself.

An ML focus probably isn't the boost you may have thought if you want a job at Stanford. The big schools have their pick of the litter and are already flush with ML talent, so being "an ML guy" isn't a magic serum that hides all your other flaws. You still have to be smart enough and positioned well (good school, good advisor) to get a job at Stanford.

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by benibela on Saturday November 23, 2019 @02:56PM (#21616121)
I am in such a situation now. Soon to graduate with a PhD in ML about Bayesian networks, and do not know what to do in future.

Originally I learned programming, so I can write classical software, working from home. Never wanted to do anything else, but that does not pay. Only for AI research I could get funding

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by mateo411 on Friday November 22, 2019 @05:48PM (#21610941)
I don't think that's true. The vast majority of software development jobs require no ML at all. I don't see that changing in the next 10 to 20 years.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by lumost on Friday November 22, 2019 @06:03PM (#21611046)
Even further the majority of work in ml driven products is not related to the ML model.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by t_serpico on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:35PM (#21612490)
this 1000%.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by cuddlybacon on Friday November 22, 2019 @06:49PM (#21611312)
I don't think it is true either. But my friend tells me that multiple profs tell him that he needs to learn ML.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by topkai22 on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:13AM (#21612596)
I learned ML in school 13 years ago. I've been happily employed since then at a major tech company with increasing responsibility and the only time I've really needed that background was to call BS on a given project needing a custom ML component.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by yawaramin on Friday November 22, 2019 @08:56PM (#21611907)
Maybe those profs are just huge fans of ML–you know, the original ML, i.e., Standard ML, OCaml, etc.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by journalctl on Friday November 22, 2019 @09:16PM (#21611978)
“Who needs a neural net? OCaml can already match patterns!”
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by core-questions on Friday November 22, 2019 @07:15PM (#21611464)
That's ridiculous. There are tons of jobs in everything from devops to pure frontend to writing shit in COBOL.

ML is sexy and pays a lot, sure, but it's far from the only thing going.

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by codebolt on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:06PM (#21609502)
Another tactic for an undergrad looking for a leg up in their career might be to do a double major of CS + some other engineering field or finance. You can really outperform your peers and become a unique asset in a given industry by having an expert understanding of the domain paired with expertise in software development.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by brookhaven_dude on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:36PM (#21609785)
Good combinations - CS + Finance, CS + Operations Research, CS + Economics, CS + Physics
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by MiracleUser on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:11PM (#21610119)
>CS + Operations Research

this is me. I can't recommend it enough.

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by andy_ppp on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:37PM (#21610360)
I loved doing OR for my final project at Uni, it was great solving the travelling salesman problem for a taxi network routing it to the correct people and picking people up in realtime around an imaginary map of points. I remember thinking as I took a cab into halls from the station "wouldn't this be amazing if I could have a device that told me exactly where each cab was at any point and maybe hook into the satnav somehow". In 1999 [1].

[1] https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C5CHFA_enGB720GB720&sxsrf...

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by MiracleUser on Monday November 25, 2019 @07:55PM (#21634679)
talk about having the right idea at the wrong time!
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by andy_ppp on Monday December 02, 2019 @05:10AM (#21681214)
Ah, I would never in a million years been enough of a shitbag to build Uber so it's a moot point. But still.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by riffraff on Saturday November 23, 2019 @02:11AM (#21612877)
In my school all CS students took at least one OR class.

It was one of the best classes I've taken and some of the things still feel like magic.

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by MiracleUser on Monday November 25, 2019 @07:53PM (#21634659)
Was it linear programming?
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by bumby on Saturday November 23, 2019 @08:17AM (#21613946)
Do you have any suggestions for people who want to self-study in OR? I would like to know more in general but am specifically interested in applications to healthcare
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by MiracleUser on Monday November 25, 2019 @07:46PM (#21634591)
My recent previous employment was in healthcare (on the insurance side) so I can give you some relevant insight

I do want to mention that on top of any self-studying, try to attend a talk or two or start following some feeds online that are close to actual healthcare operations. Operational teams are the ones who have to figure out what to do even when there is no good answer. the easiest way to keep up with which topics are most valuable right now is inside knowledge.

There is no purity in the OR field outside of phd's doing their research - it is entirely about getting shit done efficiently, however possible, to the extent that the operations team can understand. That last part of that sentence is a big catch. For example, if your 'solution' has interns making judgement calls on data entry (because moving the work upstream is efficient!), you are fucked if you assume that data will be accurate.

BUT there's obviously plenty of skillset stuff you can learn to help you in a general way so here are some important areas: 1: Linear & Nonlinear programming (tool: AMPL) 2: Markov Chains (good knowledge) 3: Statistics & probability (necessary knowledge) 4: Simulation (start with monte-carlo [it is easy and you will be surprised it has a name]) 5: databases: SQL / JSON / NoSQL 6: data structures and algorithms (big O notation / complexity)

OR work in general overlaps a lot with business analysis. The core stuff they teach you in school is listed above.

Healthcare right now has a big focus on Natural Language Processing, and applying Standardized Codes to medical charts - and then working with those codes. The most common coding standard in US is ICD-10 I believe.

Other than that it is mostly solved logistical items like inventory control systems that need a qualified operator. You do not want your hospital running out of syringes. You do not want your supplier to be unable to fulfill your order of syringes because you need too many at once. You do not want to go over budget on syringes because there's a hundred other items that need to be managed as well.

Now the important thing to keep in mind is that almost all operations problems at existing companies/facilities have solved their problems to SOME extent since if they didnt then their operations teams would have fallen apart and failed. So in practice it is rare that you are going to implement some system from scratch, or create some big model. Youre probably going to work with a random assortment of tools and mix data together between them on a day to day basis to keep track of when you need to notify people of things. With a lot of moving parts, you will have to task yourself with finding improvements and justifying them. Expenses are very likely to be higher than optimal, and you can earn extra value for yourself by finding incremental improvements.

No one is going to say: "work up a statistical model for me". They are just going to be doing something inefficiently with no idea how to do it better, and you are going to have to prove to some extent why doing it another way will be better - and also be worth the cost of training people to do it a new way. It will be monumentally difficult to convince anyone to make any sort of major change unless the operations team is redlining, so your best skill will be in being resourceful and adapting to the way things are no matter and improving THAT mess - not creating a new way of doing things.

Databases house the data you need to make your case. SQL was the norm, but a lot of stuff is JSON now. You might need to work with an API, add django to the req list.

Simulations let you test multiple scenarios of resource allocation on a complex system with moving parts (for example, resources includes # of hospital rooms as well as employees and their work schedules). Statistical analysis lets you verify the output of your simulations as meaningful or not. There are proprietary simulation programs that do the A-Z of this for you if you know how to configure it (ARENA), and theres pysim + numpy + pandas + ...

Markov chains are related to building a model for your system. It's theory stuff, but helps wire your brain for it. Laplace transforms are "relevant" somewhere in this category

(non)linear programming is the calculator of the fields distribution problems. In practice you create 2 files: a model file and a data file. Model file expects the data file to be a certain format, and is a programming language for processing the dataset.

For example, if you manufacture doors and windows at 3 locations, and sell them at 10 other locations, and you have a budget of $10000: how much wood and glass do you buy for each manufacturing location and how many doors and windows do you make and ship to each selling spot from each factory? The answer depends on data - price each sells at, cost for each plant to produce, capacity of each plant to produce, cost of transporting from factory to selling location, etc. So you make a model file for your problem and then you put all the numbers in a data file. You can change a number, run the model again, see if the result changed. You can script this to test many different possible changes

Data structures and algorithms: There are a lot of different optimization algorithms, all with different use-cases and theres no real upper limit on learning them; so this area can be a good time sink... since someone else will have already coded the implementation but you are providing value in knowing how to use it. Therefor - you dont need to learn how to make the algorithms or what magic they perform outside of whatever helps you understand what its good at. Outside of research, its unlikely this stuff will really get you anything other than maybe being able to impress at an interview - BUT who knows, maybe you find a use-case for some random alg that is career-defining.

I know a ranted a bit, and I didnt proof read, but I hope there was some helpful info in there

Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by bumby on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:05AM (#21638330)
Thank you for the really in-depth reply! This is very helpful and gives me a lot to think about.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by MiracleUser on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:21AM (#21638462)
No problem! I'm glad it was helpful
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by randomidiot666 on Friday November 22, 2019 @06:55PM (#21611351)
My double major was CS + Applied Mathematics. Highly recommended.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by phyalow on Saturday November 23, 2019 @06:25AM (#21613594)
I did CS + Finance, then got an MBA. It has set me up very nicely.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by nloladze on Saturday November 23, 2019 @04:08AM (#21613207)
CS + Something medical, at least in the US
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by asdfman123 on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:13PM (#21609563)
I majored in geophysics and it doesn't really help me as a software engineer in Houston (although I haven't tried to really exploit it for the most money, because I felt guilty about working in oil and left). What's killer though is having a master's in a field and programming experience.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by jt0 on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:39PM (#21609813)
I'm not in Houston or oil/gas, but trying to find a niche with the same background. I'm not seeing a great demand for this combo commercially unfortunately.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by asdfman123 on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:31PM (#21610306)
It's super easy to get a general programming job, though.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by selimthegrim on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:33PM (#21609754)
Did you have to leave Houston too?
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by asdfman123 on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:31PM (#21610301)
Nope, happily employed here. What prompted you to leave?
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by selimthegrim on Sunday November 24, 2019 @03:55AM (#21619218)
Nope, haven’t arrived yet. Just scoping it out.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by asdfman123 on Monday November 25, 2019 @11:00AM (#21629291)
Nah, Houston is fine and there are plenty of enterprise jobs, and they are constantly hiring. If you need a reference, send me a PM and I'll give you my email address.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by selimthegrim on Monday November 25, 2019 @06:14PM (#21633915)
I’m not sure how to PM you on here...
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by asdfman123 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @10:36AM (#21639156)
Yeah, sorry, I'm used to reddit. Leave your email? Leave a temporary email? I would list mine but I don't like linking my online identities to my real one.
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by selimthegrim on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:06PM (#21670905)
gmail is my HN handle
Re:The revolution of machine learning has been exaggerated by tenaciousDaniel on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:05PM (#21610061)
This is true. My first job as a dev was in fintech, but I know literally nothing about finance, nor do I care to. I was not a very good developer in that arena, because you really need domain knowledge to be truly effective in some fields.