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Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by smacktoward on Thursday November 21, 2019 @02:15PM (#21598206)
> They won't release products like Office for Linux

Because the market for desktop Linux applications is too small to be worth considering.

The whole reason they "love Linux" now is because Linux on the server gained too much market share for them to realistically oppose. They had to find a way to make money in that market that didn't involve somehow boiling an ocean of Linux machines. So they did.

Windows is still overwhelmingly strong in the desktop market, though, so they have no such incentive to accommodate it there. Nobody retreats from a battlefield they've already won.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by dredmorbius on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:25PM (#21600408)
Microsoft have an established track record of offering, then withdrawing, MS Office for alternate platforms (or refusing to offer it at all).

I seem to recall that there was an Office version for Sun Microsystem's Solaris, which is 99.99...% of the way to a Linux variant. That was killed.

(This may have been MSIE or an Exchange-compatible email client, I'm researching this still.)

OSX is better supported, though for a long time Microsoft's email client was not Outlook but Entourage, a now-discontinued project. It had a typical-for-Microsoft opaque binary data storage format, though it's proved possible to extract useful information from this using Linux utilities.

Microsoft discontinued MSIE support on Mac in 2005, an issue given that many enterprise Web / intranet tools relied exclusively on nonstandard MSIE web extensions.

Office was never offered for BeOS, which I believe was a deliberate strategy decision, though I'm not finding evidence of this (JLG should be able to comment, if anyone has current contact). The lack was seen as a kiss-of-death for the OS and hardware.

Alternatively, what made RIM's Blackberry as popular among business executives as it was was its integration with MS Exchange email servers.

Strategic control over what ports were and were not supported by Microsoft, regardless of technical difficulty or merits, was a major element of that company's monopoly abuses.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by philwelch on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:36PM (#21600944)
You’re citing things that happened almost 20 years ago if you’re talking about Solaris and BeOS.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by dredmorbius on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:49PM (#21601058)
Precisely my point. The tiger rarely changes its stripes.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by cwyers on Thursday November 21, 2019 @07:22PM (#21601258)
Microsoft isn't a tiger, it's a group of people. There is some continuity, but the people making those decisions are not the same people making those decisions now.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by dredmorbius on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:38AM (#21603349)
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by philwelch on Thursday November 21, 2019 @08:19PM (#21601601)
Must be why Apple went out of business selling weird computers that ran an unstable proprietary OS using PowerPC CPU’s. And Google never went back to China because of their founders’ personal/family experiences living under communism.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by pbhjpbhj on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:25PM (#21600881)
>an [MS] Office version for Sun Microsystem's Solaris //

Are you sure you're not thinking of StarOffice, which became OpenOffice.org which begat LibreOffice. That was Sun's answer to MS Office, supposedly started by realising it was cheaper to buy a company that made an office suite and develop it in-house than it was to pay MS for their suite.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by dredmorbius on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:49PM (#21601051)
I'm positive it wasn't Staroffice. I know that story ... painfully ... well.

It might not have been MS office, but MSIE or a specific application. I'm finding researching this online disappointingly fruitless, though I've got inquiries in a few spots.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by IcePic on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:37AM (#21603348)
I think MSIE and the Windows Media player appeared for Solaris for a really short while at least. Outlook Express too, it seems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_UNIX

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by yellowapple on Thursday November 21, 2019 @07:26PM (#21601273)
> This may have been MSIE

Indeed it was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_UNIX

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by dredmorbius on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:35AM (#21603337)
Thanks. That was part of it.

I think I may also have been recalling Wabi, a Windows Application Binary Interface for Solaris, effectively rather like Wine, I believe.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi_(software)

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by dredmorbius on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:27PM (#21608398)
Not directly addressing my points above, but a 1996 Linux Journal piece by Michael K. Johnson describing the compatibility landscape at the time:

https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/1232

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by briffle on Thursday November 21, 2019 @07:53PM (#21601446)
I ran IE (I think it was 3.0) on an HP-UX workstation back around the millennium.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by giancarlostoro on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:54PM (#21600115)
Would it be too crazy to think Microsoft could one day adopt Linux as their core for their OS though? They could probably implement the Win32 API as an API for a distro much like Wine does (but much better and from scratch) and keep those portions proprietary. This allows their OS to run on more platforms than Windows ever has. Much like how Edge is now Chromium based.

Nothing is stopping them from making Linux server distros either since they do produce SQL Server for Linux as it is. They ported a lot of VS code to Mac (not it isnt just MonoDevelop) and were surprised by how much just worked due to the OO design.

Microsoft is embedding the Linux kernel already. Whats next? A linux friendly file system? Things are going to get interesting overtime.

I have no knowledge of what they are up to truly just a bit of speculation. But given what has happened in the last decade that is "not Microsofts MO" none of this would surprise me.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by oaiey on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:48PM (#21600597)
That is crazy. Because NT is an excellent kernel done by a industry legend (David Cutler). It runs on 80%+ of all desktop, is the grid below a cloud platform, is a game console and has a track record of being flexible enough to run on microcontrollers, phones, etc. And the complete hardware industry supports it.

There is no reason to switch to Linux, considering that they would need to reinvent the whole UI stack of Linux like MacOS did. Keeping a 50 people hired for Kernel development sounds cheaper.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by fps_doug on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:57AM (#21604268)
Agreed. I did a lot of reading about the NT architecture 10+ years ago purely out of interest, and it's pretty amazing. And I'm saying this as a Linux person.

The only reason Linux is so successful is actually the fact that it's open source. For individuals (like me) because that gives you much more flexibility in customizing the system, tinkering with it, and more importantly, debugging problems and understanding inner workings.

But even for big corps (which are mostly running the show when it comes to Kernel dev these days) it's much easier to whack the Linux kernel into shape for whatever you want to achieve, than trying to work with Microsoft to get what you want from NT.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by tomxor on Saturday November 23, 2019 @08:53AM (#21614095)
> The only reason Linux is so successful is actually the fact that it's open source. For individuals (like me) because that gives you much more flexibility in customizing the system, tinkering with it, and more importantly, debugging problems and understanding inner workings.

I agree a significant part (necessary part?) of Linux success among hackers and developers is it being FOSS... I don't know much about NT kernel but it would be quite interesting to see the alternate reality in which it was also FOSS and independent of the rest of windows, I wonder if it would have a similar success in the arenas Linux does.

There are some other really interesting FOSS kernels out there today like Minix3 (quite different from the Minix that inspired Linux), they are sure to have deficiencies when directly compared to something like Linux due to the difference in the shear size of community driving them, but they have noteworthy designs, superior in various aspects, and they make me wonder, is there only enough space in the world for so many popular FOSS kernels? i.e how much of Linux is now inertia much like windows desktop? (and I say this as a full time Linux user)

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by oaiey on Saturday November 23, 2019 @01:25PM (#21615589)
FOSS NT Kernel... It would only be successful when it is really FOSS and not company backed single main contributor FOSS like Chrome or .NET Core. As a kernel contributor I want to shape my kernel, not being overruled by a decision done in a meeting somewhere on a campus I never visited.

You would need extensive partnership agreements like what Google has with Microsoft regards Chrome or Samsung has with Microsoft regards .NET Core. Challenging for smaller vendors.

Linux has a more pure (not owned) FOSS style making it successful.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by tomxor on Thursday November 21, 2019 @10:38PM (#21602210)
> they would need to reinvent the whole UI stack of Linux like MacOS did.

MacOS X is not based on Linux or GNU and it's UI evolved out of a combination of Next technology and features combined with re-implemented classic Mac OS features. So it wasn't exactly a clean slate.

More relevantly though, they put some effort into maintaining compatibility with programs written for their previous OS by both porting their APIs and providing CPU emulation! And that is on top of bringing the rest of nextstep up to standard for what consumers were expecting out of a desktop OS at the time.

> Keeping a 50 people hired for Kernel development sounds cheaper.

I doubt it, Microsoft can and has rewritten their UI multiple times... if they wanted to, they could write it for Linux atop their own ported windows API with little effort. I think they just lack the incentive to do so, Linux users wont care because they wont use it, Windows users wont care because they don't care about Linux... who will benefit? not Microsoft that's for sure.

From a business perspective MS behavior makes sense, they are embracing Linux because that's the way one half of the market is headed whether they like it or not... meanwhile their desktop business still has a hold on the market mostly out of inertia and legacy, so why would they do something as radical as change the core OS to mess that up?

However as the parent said "one day", maybe, in the future, when windows makes zero sense to run on metal, then perhaps microsoft will create an official and FOSS windows API... if only to relieve themselves from security support hell.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by oaiey on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:13AM (#21603241)
Yeah, you nail the point: there is no incentive. There is no benefit for them into it. Exactly my point.

The rest of their business is where the money is. Office runs one way or the other out of the web, on Android, iOS or macOS.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by jussij on Thursday November 21, 2019 @08:19PM (#21601595)
> They could probably implement the Win32 API as an API for a distro

I'm no sure the powers that be at Microsoft have any great love for Win32.

Back when Windows 8 was released they introduced UPM (Universal Windows Platform) and that looked a lot like an attempt to actually kill off Win32.

They only backed away from this strategy after the backlash they got from Win32 Windows developers.

Move on to today and I think they are now using platforms like .NET Core 3.0 to gently move developers away from Win32.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by jankotek on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:01PM (#21600701)
Wine is actually more compatible with older apps than Win32 implementation in Win10. Better alternative would be to extend Wine.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by Kipters on Friday November 22, 2019 @05:25AM (#21604392)
> They could probably implement the Win32 API as an API for a distro

They did, that's how SQL Server runs on Linux

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by SiVal on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:21PM (#21600371)
the market for desktop Linux applications is too small to be worth considering

Yes, and the market for NeXT software was likewise until Apple decided to put it under a Mac shell. In fact, NT was the same until MS put it under a Windows shell. They could do it again, put Windows on a Linux kernel with a multiyear transition strategy and have the consumer and producer clients with the closest integration with Linux servers.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by at-fates-hands on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:15PM (#21599700)
> Because the market for desktop Linux applications is too small to be worth considering.

I would also add in there are other open source options that are compatible and work well with MS Office now. Libre Office and Open Office are two such examples. I can now write my resume in either or and save it in a docx format, send it to a recruiter and then they can open it with MS Word without any issues.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by jacquesm on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:47PM (#21600047)
The bigger competitor for Word and the rest of the office suite is not Libre or Open Office but Google Docs. It's cross platform and does away with local file storage, which is a security risk and a data loss risk.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by bakuninsbart on Friday November 22, 2019 @06:55AM (#21604779)
The only thing they NEED to improve is version history comparison. I do not understand why it is so hard to "save" a version of a file before you make your own changes, so that others then can easily see what you changed.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by at-fates-hands on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:13PM (#21600796)
Good call.

I haven't used Google Docs in a long time and had forgotten about them.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by innocenat on Thursday November 21, 2019 @07:50PM (#21601429)
Yeah, until you encountered complex script and East Asian script.

As a Linux user I still maintain a Windows VM precisely for MS Office. On Linux, WPS Office is much better at handling these scripts though.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by jay_kyburz on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:27PM (#21599840)
errr... I would still export it as PDF first. I wouldn't trust something as important as a job application to work perfectly. (I'm a Libre Office user on Windows. )
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by jabits on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:16PM (#21599706)
Vanishingly small...the Linux community are usually fan-faring increases in usage on a fractional part of a percentage increase, ~ 2%. And to me, how could they anyway, I can't find "a Linux desktop". There are many, which one would they port to? And as a shareholder, I would not want them to waste the money at this point...
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by frankohn on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:58PM (#21600148)
> And to me, how could they anyway, I can't find "a Linux desktop". There are many, which one would they port to?

This was the very reason that prevented Google to release Google Chrome for Linux.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by finder83 on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:20PM (#21600358)
Maybe I'm missing your point, but Google Chrome is available on Linux and is available on pretty much any distro I've tried (and has been for many years).
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by jtl999 on Thursday November 21, 2019 @09:28PM (#21601918)
If I remember right from years ago (2008-2010) the initial release of Chrome was just for Windows, and the Linux version was in beta for quite a while as just "Chromium" without much Google "cloud" integration.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by dredmorbius on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:28PM (#21600419)
Sarcastic or ignorant?
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by aiCeivi9 on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:54AM (#21604254)
Both. GP knows Chrome for Linux exists but ignores that its need for auto-update doesn't play well with distros package management and it also statically-links or ships 3rd party libs. Clearly supporting diverse (fragmented) linux ecosystem is not easy at all.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by rstuart4133 on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:16AM (#21618746)
> Chrome for Linux exists but ignores that its need for auto-update doesn't play well with distros package management and it also statically-links or ships 3rd party libs.

At least on Debian, it plays perfectly well with the Distro's package management. They use it to auto update google-chrome in preference to their roll their own on effort Windows. The same update system works perfect well on all Debian derived distro's. I'm not familiar with an rpm based distro to say for sure, but I imagine the situation is the same. So "fragmented" means supporting 2 very well tested distribution systems rather than rolling their own - and having the "take out all Macbooks" problems they did on OSX.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by dependenttypes on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:25PM (#21599820)
> ~ 2%.

2% of the human population are 154 million people. Sure, not everyone has a computer, so let's say 66 million people, this is the population of France.

> There are many, which one would they port to?

You don't actually need to support a specific desktop environment. Any UI program that you write will work just fine on KDE, GNOME, DWM, etc

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by curt15 on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:50PM (#21600080)
>Any UI program that you write will work just fine on KDE, GNOME, DWM, etc

But which versions of which libraries do you target? Every distribution has its own menagerie. There is no well-defined "Linux platform" like there is with Windows (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/).

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by disintegore on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:58PM (#21600677)
If your software is FLOSS, that's an integration problem for distro maintainers to solve and it hinges on said libraries being versioned properly. The bigger distros usually have 10,000+ packages and those are downloaded, installed and updated automatically which cannot be said of almost all Windows and OS X software. Really, only Android and iOS offer a similar experience.

If your software is proprietary (or not popular enough to be found in most repos), there's always container technologies like Snap/AppImage/FlatPak/etc.

As a Windows dev I find both of these to be vastly superior to the standard Windows practice of shipping every DLL that's not in system32 alongside your executable, on top of whatever VC++ redistributables and/or .NET framework might not be present on the system.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by dependenttypes on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:12PM (#21600278)
Just static link? Or do what windows software does, so ship dynamic libraries with your application. I do not see the issue.

> There is no well-defined "Linux platform"

There actually is! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Standard_Base

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by gmueckl on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:57PM (#21600144)
Core libraries like glibc and Xlib are pretty well defined. You need to ship your own copy of the widget library of choice, but that isn't a big deal. You could even ship an Xlib copy and rely on the fact that there is an X server speaking the same protocol. It's all perhaps a bit messy, but it works.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by gmueckl on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:54PM (#21600118)
That is only true on X. With the wayland protocol, the DE also becomes the display server. And because of barndoor sized holes in the standard wayland protocol, apps will either have enormous testing effort or be limited to a DE or two.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by japanoise on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:02PM (#21600195)
And that's why wayland will never replace X
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by dependenttypes on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:12PM (#21600287)
Most programs use existing libraries like SDL, GTK, QT, etc, which handle wayland integration on their part.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by jacob019 on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:55PM (#21601104)
I work in an Industrious co-working space in Indianapolis. As I walk around the office and see people's monitors, it appears that about 30% of people are running Ubuntu.

Edit: Query re downvote, too subjective?

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by gerbilly on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:51PM (#21601080)
> Because the market for desktop Linux applications is too small to be worth considering.

And that is because office and other major applications aren't available on linux.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by denkmoon on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:54PM (#21601099)
So it's a chicken and egg problem. I wouldn't "go first" if I were Microsoft, no reason to accelerate the obsolescence of windows desktop. Why not let eg. Adobe go first?
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by zarkov99 on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:50PM (#21601064)
Linux is also much more popular for developers. WSL is a very well executed strategy to keep developers on Windows.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by pbhjpbhj on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:28PM (#21600901)
>Because the market for desktop Linux applications is too small to be worth considering. //

If MS Office were available for Linux the market for Linux applications would grow, massively IMO (assuming it worked properly). Which is of course a reason MS wouldn't do that, because why move MS Office users to Linux when you're currently selling $Billions of OS to people who only want to use MS Office.

Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by ghaff on Thursday November 21, 2019 @08:14PM (#21601572)
Increasingly people don't care about productivity suites running locally. Office 365 and Gsuite work just fine with Linux.
Re:Microsoft's “Love” of Linux by 8bitsrule on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:49PM (#21600069)
>the market for desktop Linux applications is too small to be worth considering.

The market for Beethoven is also too small to be worth considering. What does the market know?