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Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by acruns on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:18PM (#21548335)
I turned down an offer from Google (cloud) because I didn't want to work for a company that was so focused on politics internally. This was just after they fired Damore, not that I agree or disagree with his opinion, but because Google seems promote internal fighting. That type of culture doesn't appeal to me.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by daenz on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:25PM (#21548396)
>not that I agree or disagree with his opinion

You just outed yourself. I wish I was joking, but anything other than instant condemnation of what he wrote gets you labelled.

Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by ngngngng on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:30PM (#21548436)
You phrased this funny, and I think that's why you're getting downvotes since the sarcasm wasn't obvious.

You're right though, what we just saw with the linux foundations tone policing and the Lindsay Shepherd situation absolutely confirm this. There is a very effective group of activists that can make life hell for you if you don't hate the same things as them with the same fervor.

Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by shadowgovt on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:44PM (#21548568)
The downside to becoming wildly successful and influential in a culture is you begin to come under far more scrutiny from that culture.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by sagichmal on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:15PM (#21549335)
This is a deeply disingenuous interpretation of events, to the extent of being a lie.

Damore, Woods, and that other dude who went on a misogynist Twitter tirade for a full day, were all deliberate assholes in public. There were consequences for that. This is just and correct.

Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by zarkov99 on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:43PM (#21549497)
Could you please provide a link to anything that Damore might have written or said in public that would justify calling him an asshole? Because I have read his paper, listened to some of his interviews and to me he looked as far from an asshole as any human can be.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by dave_b on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:06PM (#21549659)
He also never intended to be public about it, he kept his memo internal and posted it in a place that was soliciting feedback on the topic. It only became public when one of the activist types leaked it.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by zionic on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:55PM (#21549898)
Please provide citations of him lying, or misogynist Twitter tirades.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by baked_ziti on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:31PM (#21549437)
Which part is a lie?
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by ChrisCinelli on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:06PM (#21550494)
On his twitter account I found this: https://mobile.twitter.com/JamesADamore/status/1115631402119...

> The two companies with the biggest internal social media platforms for their employees (Google and Facebook) also have massive employee turmoil… Anyone surprised?

Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by rexpop on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:32PM (#21550591)
Is it greater turmoil, or greater vocal agreement on perceived abuses?
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by rpmisms on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:25PM (#21548908)
Dude, it's OK to say you agree with him. He was well-intentioned, and was trying to fix an actual problem, that spaces created by men aren't necessarily as welcoming to women. That's not wrong, even if you disagree with his approach. He was crucified because he dared to suggest that differences exist between men and women in any meaningful way.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by cloverich on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:47PM (#21549521)
I only passively followed the Damore fiasco and out of curiosity went and read his memo[1] just now. "that spaces created by men aren't necessarily as welcoming to women" doesn't feel like the major theme of his piece. The major theme feels like "practices that specifically promote women and non-white races are discriminatory, unfair, and it is hurting Google". I"m quite sure he was treated unfairly, but I don't think your characterization of his piece is consistent with its content.

[1]: https://firedfortruth.com/

Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by lawnchair_larry on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:39PM (#21549059)
More than that, he was crucified for things he didn’t say, because nearly every blog and media outlet ran complete lies as their headline.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by bitwize on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:28PM (#21548427)
I worked there as a contractor in 2014, well before the Damore flap, and while it wasn't as overt as it is now, I could certainly taste it in the air.
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Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by ThrowawayR2 on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:15PM (#21548836)
As an old school liberal, it pains me to see these activists described as "liberal". They don't even believe in freedom of speech for pity's sake, formerly a hallmark of being far right.

Call them progressives, call them identity politics advocates, but whatever they are, they are not liberals. Don't lump us in with them.

Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by dredmorbius on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:23PM (#21548899)
The case of Classic Liberals opposing universal freedom of speech (originally largely aimed at "papists", a/k/a the Catholic Church, ~1600 - ~1800), is not entirely novel.

It's a power relation, and one which recognises that a sufficiently empowered majority (or oppressive, empowered, minority) can itself be inimicable with, or at least effectively portrayed as same, free expression.

The story of free expression is more complex than virtually all treatments acknowledge.

Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by underwater on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:22PM (#21549743)
I hope you can identify the irony in your statement.
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Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by bitwize on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:22PM (#21548888)
> and when "anybody who thinks that it's okay for there to be consequences for racism / sexism / other bigotry is a worthless California leftist and should be ignored" became the default modus operandi of many right-wing extremists.

That was always the MO of right-wing extremists. But after Trump's election is when people whose views were once considered moderate-left to moderate-right suddenly became "far-right", "alt-right", or "Nazis".

I think it stems from a mentality that someone else pointed out: not wanting to discuss the matter is tacit support for the status quo. A.k.a. "if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem." A.k.a. "Until they are free they are part of the System, and that System is the enemy." If you aren't anti-racist or anti-sexist enough, you must be racist or sexist.

[dead]
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by AnimalMuppet on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:03PM (#21549266)
bitwize said that, after Trump's election, a lot of stuff got labeled "far right" that never was before.

You replied that bitwize was supporting white nationalists and repeating a propaganda narrative.

Hmm... I'd say you just proved bitwize's point.

Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by weberc2 on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:41PM (#21549080)
Most moderates are fine with consequences for racism/sexism/etc, but we object to willfully misinterpreting one's political opponents as espousing racism/sexism/etc in order to justify their persecution. It's the weaponization of those consequences that we object to.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by sagichmal on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:17PM (#21549347)
You see weaponization, I see regular old consequences.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by weberc2 on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:48PM (#21549527)
That's fine that you see it that way; let's have a debate about that. Why do we punish people for being skeptical, for example, that discrimination is the principle cause for disparities in tech employment or the wage gap? Why is it fundamentally sexist to _merely consider_ the possibility that there are population level differences between men and women--even when those differences leave men and women equal on average (e.g., Damore)?

How can we resist racism/sexism without a basis in knowledge? And if we have that basis in knowledge, how can we verify if verification is itself racist/sexist?

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Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by zozbot234 on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:32PM (#21548992)
Except if they're a leftist, liberal type, of course. Or even an adherent of a "preferred" or "protected" religion. These get to say racist, sexist, homophobic things all day long, and none of their fellow activists would bat an eye.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by bitwize on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:36PM (#21549030)
"White men ain't shit in tech" => no action taken despite being technically a CoC violation
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by lawnchair_larry on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:40PM (#21549070)
What’s that from?
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by bitwize on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:13PM (#21549323)
https://mobile.twitter.com/kimcrayton1/status/11694053018183...

This is the person who led the movement to successfully deplatform Charles Max Wood, btw.

Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by weberc2 on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:35PM (#21549026)
To your point, the left's treatment of Trudeau's blackface is an interesting case study.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by nlfwhulsdhouv on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:04PM (#21549273)
The left was pretty damn upset about the blackface scandal.

The Liberals are a _centrist_ party, not a leftist one. That's the NDP.

Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by refurb on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:30PM (#21549429)
The left wasn’t upset enough not to vote for him!
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by umeshunni on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:28PM (#21548941)
Sure, once you classify anyone who opposes, for e.g. illegal immigration, as a racist, everyone is a racist.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by klyrs on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:01PM (#21549624)
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by zarkov99 on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:43PM (#21549096)
Except if you disparage white, straight men, sight unseen. Then you are just virtuous.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by utopcell on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:10PM (#21549307)
Google is promoting internal fighting ? That's the most baseless accusation I can think of and is miles apart from my personal experience.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by mav3rick on Friday November 15, 2019 @11:25PM (#21551006)
It's funny how he knew this from outside Google.
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Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by rainyMammoth on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:35PM (#21550604)
This is not what he said at all. He said that the interests of men are different than the interests of women. You are blindly repeating what blogs and other activists reported he said. Go read his memo.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by laughinghan on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @03:36PM (#21588205)
Didn't he specifically claim that science shows women are more neurotic than men?
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by paggle on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:22PM (#21548361)
You should consider Microsoft and Apple... employees there don't really care too much about these things
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by filoleg on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:43PM (#21548567)
Funny you mention it, because I currently am working at one of those two, and for my next gig am seriously looking at the other one in the pair. Note: I love my current team and project, but nothing is permanent, and it is always good to be on the lookout for the next thing, in case things go sour or if you want to switch things up.

Overall, I agree with you, but it isn't that employees there don't care. It just honestly feels like the overall group of employees at Apple/MSFT is truly more diverse (not just in terms of race and such, but in terms of socioeconomic upbringing, culture, and diversity of thought), hence why they are used to being respectful of other people's views (even if they totally disagree with those) and not succumbing to the monoculture kind of thought, because it would be almost impossible to have a monoculture there in the first place.

There are definitely a few small enclaves like that at Google as well, but it feels more like a giant monoculture with some small enclaves, while I get the inverse feeling about Apple/MSFT (a giant diverse non-monoculture group, with a few small enclaves of monoculture).

Anecdotally, I have many friends working at all 3 of those (Apple/MSFT+Google), and they (independently of each other) brought up the same point when conversations got there.

Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by techie128 on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:38PM (#21548520)
Microsoft and Apple employees might care. However, workplace is not an appropriate forum to fight over politics or other non-work related topics. More importantly, it is important to maintain professionalism and focus on the job you've been hired to do. You can be an activist in your spare time. You may also not like your coworkers due to their political views but we live in a diverse world. Acknowledge that and work with them regardless of their political leanings.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by shadowgovt on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:47PM (#21548597)
Some politics isn't work-related.

Some is, especially when a company has 100,000 people. I think, perhaps, it is easy for people to forget that when some Googlers fought against the Dragonfly project, it's because they have friends and loved ones who are Chinese expats under threat from China's government (meanwhile, some Googlers are Chinese citizens). When some Googlers fought against project Maven, they were only two or three degrees of separation from people who had lost loved ones as "collateral damage" in US drone strikes during the "war on terror."

I think one of the most interesting questions is whether a 100,000 person multinational can survive without a hard "Don't question leadership" culture in a world with simultaneously this easy flow of communication and people and this much inequality and conflict.

Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by nkrisc on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:16PM (#21548847)
It's also possible to like someone even if you don't like their views. There's one former coworker in particular that comes to mind whose views on politics made my eyes roll nearly to the back of my head, but he wasn't a bad person. He was still a decent guy with interesting hobbies who would probably be there for you if you needed him.

I find odious people in general hold a wide variety of beliefs across the entire political spectrum.

Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by PhasmaFelis on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:21PM (#21548881)
Stirring up political arguments with your officemates is one thing. Objecting to your employers (and thus, potentially, you) building censorship systems for oppressive regimes is something entirely different.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by narrator on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:24PM (#21548905)
Google is a major media company now in that decisions they make about content influence political and social thought. That power leads to it becoming a target of politics and political activists.
Re:Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings by emodendroket on Friday November 15, 2019 @08:32PM (#21550366)
I don't care if you work for the stodgiest workplace in America, nobody is going to react well to you blasting out an e-mail missive saying diversity (as traditionally understood, since he tries to redefine it to mean something else) is a crock. Google is not an outlier here.