PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub - Hackdot

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by tluyben2 on Friday November 15, 2019 @02:45AM (#21543054)

Or just fix that system; here (EU) it is not all that easy to chargeback (and impossible in many cases) because payments are secured; if you yell fraud, they will start an investigation (mostly automated); if the IP you paid from was around your house, you filled in correct info, you did 3dsecure (which is used on all my cards now; I had a few that did not have it and they got frauded, but a simple check showed it could not have been me and they reversed them all; they now have 3dsecure too for that reason) which means you knew specific secret information, maybe have a token device and/or the phone of the card owner, they will decline the chargeback request. If you are in your country most of the time and suddenly there is a 1000E charge from a merchant in Dubai, they will block it and call you.

The ease with which you can do chargebacks in the US is harmful in a lot of cases imho. I have been a merchant (of digital goods; gaming, not gambling or adult) and got annoyed enough of US chargebacks (including from Paypal) that we started doing annoying KYC and added very long waiting periods before product delivery for US customers. We had certain payment methods (bank, and there were some payment methods that do not allow chargeback) that had immediate delivery. That fixed it, mostly. It hurts sales, but I rather make less revenue and more profit than pay for product only to lose it to scammers.

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by jotm on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:00AM (#21543389)

Thankfully I've had better chargeback experiences with EU banks. I've only requested chargebacks on products I've not received, and provided my attempts to communicate with the seller. Always got my money back, but was blocked from buying from that merchant again (not that I'd try it after the bad experience).

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by 4ad on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:57AM (#21543648)

Anectodal, etc, but I could never get a chargeback in Europe. In the US it was always very easy.

In the EU I couldn't get a chargeback even when the company said they mistakenly charged me twice, and that I should do a chargeback.

I know that theoretically the law is on my side, but practically I found it to be a huge hassle in the EU.

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by tluyben2 on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:01AM (#21543658)

I have had good chargeback experiences as well in the cases you name. I am talking about cases where it is clear where you are frauding the merchant which are still easy in the US. 3dsecure in most cases means you have to have coerced me AND have stolen my phone/token device. How would this warrant chargeback unless actually you did not receive your product and there is a clear trace of that. In this case indeed, you can chargeback. But not just randomly when you feel like it.

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by 4ad on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:11AM (#21543712)

3dsecure is security theater, I hate it so much. It doesn't matter if you have 3dsecure, because a scammer can use your card on some site that doesn't use 3dsecure. All 3dsecure does is making it harder for me to pay to legitmate websites in the EU. But wait, more often than not I can't pay at all because (in my case) 3dsecure uses SMS, and SMS delivery is unreliable, I can't get SMS from my bank when I travel to the US, or even some when I travel to some other EU countries. For me, it doesn't work approximatively 50% of the time.

And of course, SMS 2FA is not secure at all. Now if there's fraud and the scammer used 3dsecure with spoofed SMS, good luck convinging the bank it wasn't you.

"But SMS is not the only option" you say, "other banks have better 2FA", actually, I use other banks too. And they have something insane for 2FA: https://lobste.rs/s/1cyltz/two_factor_authentication_now_ava....

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by tluyben2 on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:16AM (#21543731)

If the site does not have 3dsecure then chargeback is easy...

And yes, agreed, SMS stinks. I have tokens for everything and insist on that. Unfortunately some banks now only have sms...

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by 4ad on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:19AM (#21543745)

See my edit about hw tokens. To me hw tokens are bad, not only because of the UI/UX disaster explained in the link above, but because I have to have the damn thing with me. Also, batteries ran out while I was in the US for 4 months, and the bank would not send me a new one, I'd have to come get it in person. Thanks bank!

And chargeback was always impossible in my case. In the US I click a button in the webui, or call a phone number. In the EU, I had to come in person to the bank three times, and fill all kinds of forms, and in the end, I still didn't get my money back.

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by tluyben2 on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:29AM (#21543783)

Seems you had bad luck but to me that still doesn't warrant free 'screw all merchants' card.

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by chc on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:29PM (#21547364)

The EU system is fine with fraud as long as the fraud involved tricking you into approving a charge? That doesn't seem right. So I could sell Rolexes for $50 and nobody could get their $50 back when I send them a toy watch from the Wal-Mart checkout line?

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by barsonme on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:42AM (#21543299)

Pretty much everything you mentioned under "secured" payments occurs in the US, too.

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by tluyben2 on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:37AM (#21543561)

Why is it so easy to charge back then? If it's secured then they know it was you... Unless you have a police report saying you were coerced, forced, something was stolen?

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by 4ad on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:56AM (#21543645)

Because US banks prefer to keep customers happy, unlike EU banks.

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by tluyben2 on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:58AM (#21543650)

How does that work? If you can be sure it was owner initiated, then you allow, outside of some corner cases (which work here too), people to fraud merchants. That makes people happy?

Edit; I know there are more reasons for chargeback and those you can get across the line here too, however, 'frivolous' chargebacks are not good for anyone but they are easy in the US.

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by 4ad on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:02AM (#21543670)

You are assuming that people only do chargeback in the case of some kind of fraud where other people stole your card details and spent your money. That is not the case. There are many other reasons to do a chargeback, far more reasons in fact.

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by perlpimp on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:45AM (#21544092)

AFAIK there it was put in the law(at least US/Canada) that credit card company have to return money and deal with fraudsters their way, CC companies have some really rabid investigators. If they behave improperly you can voice a complaint for financial regulatory authorities - banks really hate dealing with the government.

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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by 4ad on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:55AM (#21544130)

Yeah, the law is on your (customer's) side in the EU also. Unfortunately people don't know that, so banks can afford to bully their customers into renouncing their claims. Technically if you are the type of person who knows how to deal with these types of problematic businesses that push you around, you will eventually prevail, but it will cost you a lot of time and effort. In my case, the financial loss was not high enough in order to waste even more than three trips to the bank.

My partner's parents were hit hard though, about €5k. They argued back and forth with the bank for about 6 months to no avail. "Sorry, we can't do anything" type of answers. The bank also tried to trick them into signing "fraud forms" that in the fine print absolved the bank of any responsibility. It was only after I actually filed a claim with relevant financial authorities, and then hit the bank with that that they suddenly got their money back.

The interesting thing is that this mentality is so prevalent that even the non-fraud department bank employees genuinely didn't know that the bank is supposed to actually help them. Many of them told us their own stories about how they were defrauded (I have no reason to suspect they were lying because they were family friends, and I heard the stories before our incident).

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