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Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by nyolfen on Monday November 11, 2019 @04:56PM (#21509319)
Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by vkou on Monday November 11, 2019 @05:11PM (#21509447)
A tumbler may theoretically[1] help[2] you launder coins that you have received from theft, extortion, drug dealing, or other criminal activity.

It won't do anything to help you avoid paying the tax man, come April.

[1] Assuming it's not a honeypot ran by a TLA.

[2] Assuming that, by legislature, tumbled coins don't become 'tainted'.

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by coralreef on Monday November 11, 2019 @05:21PM (#21509517)
Alternatively, a coin-join helps provide anonymity and privacy to legitimate users.

In order for a government to enforce taxation on cryptoassets, they would need to definitively prove that a person owned coins at a specific address. This is basically only possible if coins are bought/sold through an exchange following KYC laws.

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by PeterisP on Monday November 11, 2019 @05:50PM (#21509766)
"In order for a government to enforce taxation on cryptoassets, they would need to definitively prove that a person owned coins at a specific address." is not really true.

For starters, the government is allowed to simply ask "we think that maybe you might have had some income in the form of cryptoassets. Please provide an exhaustive list of such income" with the understanding that any lies or omision on that answer changes it from "how much do I need to pay tax?" question into a "go-to-jail-for-how-long" tax fraud.

If they find your answer suspicious (for example, it doesn't match some third party info that they have e.g. from a TLA running a honeypot tumbling service, or a honeypot 'trade crypto for cash in a park' op or Tor node monitoring or whatever, all these things are being done by gov't), then this can be followed up by a tax audit (i.e. have you purchased any assets or services that are above your declared income?) and/or a warrant to search your devices (possibly without you knowing) for forensic evidence of your crypto transactions - which might, for example, result in evidence that you used a coin-join service with an intent to circumvent KYC/AML laws, which by itself can be treated as a crime even if they don't find definitive proof that you owned coins at a particular address.

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by downvoted on Monday November 11, 2019 @06:07PM (#21509900)
Of course, this all assumes there are no loopholes in the current cryptoasset system. That is, there is no way for the government to go "we found your tax fraud, now you are going to jail for life" – they can't, as long as it doesn't "undermine" the purpose of this inquiry.
Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by JumpCrisscross on Monday November 11, 2019 @05:32PM (#21509622)
> In order for a government to enforce taxation on cryptoassets, they would need to definitively prove that a person owned coins at a specific address. This is basically only possible if coins are bought/sold through an exchange following KYC laws.

It blows me away how flippantly so many cryptocurrency enthusiasts discuss criminal money laundering.

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by coralreef on Monday November 11, 2019 @08:19PM (#21510639)
Criminal money laundering?

We're discussing the technicals on what it takes for a government to enforce taxation on a new asset class. There's no conspiracy here, only an attempt at sound understanding.

Did you not realize we talk about topics like how to penetrate computer security, with great specificity, ALL the time here on HN? Does this objective discussion about potential illegal acts blow you away too?

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by catalogia on Monday November 11, 2019 @08:09PM (#21510588)
Criminals talking about their crimes really shouldn't blow your mind. It's very common for criminals to get caught because they couldn't keep their mouth shut. Murderers get caught like this all the time, and murder is much more serious than money laundering.
Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by rootsudo on Monday November 11, 2019 @07:15PM (#21510303)
Next you'll be amazed how many high school students discuss trying to not get caught breaking school rules.

Or how many drivers speed.

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by mirimir on Monday November 11, 2019 @07:13PM (#21510287)
Right. I've used Bitcoin for a decade, and I've never used an exchange. There is no link between Bitcoin and my meatspace identity. Bitcoin is only for playing online.
Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by edm0nd on Monday November 11, 2019 @05:34PM (#21509649)
or, just use Monero.
Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by Aaronstotle on Monday November 11, 2019 @06:18PM (#21509978)
Exactly, I'm not sure why people continually try to add privacy to bitcoin when there's a better alternative. With all of the blockchain monitoring services it's nearly a lost cause.
Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by davidgerard on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @06:27AM (#21513283)
Monero's trading volume is not that great - you can reveal information through relatively-large movements, a sort of side-channel attack.
Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by RandomBacon on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @11:02AM (#21515110)
That's the first time I've heard that claim before.

I know its volume is way higher than Zcash's shielded transactions.

Do you have any details on how it might work?

I assume you're just not talking about simple timing correlation combined with trading BTC->XMR->BTC (poor opsec).

As far as I know, you can't reveal XMR amounts, receipent, or sender if you're just remaining in XMR and not going through a third party (exchange, conversion service, etc). So I'm really curious about the details of your claim.

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by davidgerard on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:19AM (#21521784)
Mostly just simple timing correlation, because coiners turn out to talk a much better game about opsec than they practice.
Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by jki275 on Monday November 11, 2019 @07:46PM (#21510463)
Monero has a ton of issues that make it not nearly as private as you might believe.

https://www.wired.com/story/monero-privacy/

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by RandomBacon on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @06:19AM (#21513255)
FYI, that's outdated now. Monero has made improvements, and researchers continue to make more improvements.

Previous HN discussion about article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16687008

r/Monero discussion: https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/87hr28/hn_discussio...

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by jki275 on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @08:19AM (#21513808)
Only one of those particular issues is outdated, as the article tells you up front. Monero still has issues that remain and continue to be found as time goes on. It's not a good protocol and not a safe one for privacy.
Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by RandomBacon on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @09:43AM (#21514452)
It's digital, so it or any other digital currency can never be perfectly-perfect. It's private which is it's main goal. If others want to be anonymous, just like any other digital currency, they need to take additional steps that can never be solved by any digital currency.

There are much better people to discuss any problems you think it might have over at r/Monero, including people with PhDs (I'll never be as smart or have as much dedication as they do). I suggest using the search function about your concern, and if you don't see it, create a post or make a comment in their Skepticism Sunday threads.

I learned about Monero here on HN years ago, understood its limitations then, and keep mostly up-to-date. I won't claim that any thing in the world won't have its limitations or problems, but I do still believe that Monero is the best project currently and still looks promising going forward in terms of user financial privacy.

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by jki275 on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @12:54PM (#21516252)
Nothing is ever going to be perfect. Saying "it's not perfect but it's private" is claiming that it's doing the job it purports to do. It's not. It's been broken from the beginning.

Most of reddit is self-aggrandizing cliques who believe they are much smarter than they really are -- especially in the cryptocurrency space. My concerns are not obscure or unknown, everyone who pays attention knows that Monero has issues.

There are multiple projects that are better in terms of financial privacy -- Monero is primarily an ugly hack to barely obfuscate transactions.

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by RandomBacon on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @01:09PM (#21516440)
> Most of reddit is self-aggrandizing cliques who believe they are much smarter than they really are -- especially in the cryptocurrency space.

I highly encourage you to visit r/Monero. Those devs are the first to say it isn't perfect. They've never promised the moon or hype themselves. They acknowledge that people's lives could balance on whether or not their finacial transactions are private, so they don't overpromise and always continue to look for ways to improve.

It seems like you have an agenda and a viewpoint that doesn't line up with reality.

(And a lot of people seem to criticize Monero because it's not anonymous (which is not the goal), so that's why I say it isn't perfect. And of course there will always be an attack vector for everything: people could track serial numbers of physical cash, the NSA could track every keystroke/tap on every device, etc, but realistically it's very good and getting better about blockchain analysis attacks.)

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by jki275 on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @01:36PM (#21516705)
I've been there. I've spent significant amounts of time reading reddit cryptocurrency boards.

I don't have an agenda. My "viewpoint" is reality. You don't have to like it, and feel free to put your trust in technology that does not deliver what you believe it does.

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by tootahe45 on Monday November 11, 2019 @08:02PM (#21510541)
https://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2019/09/151096-wasabi-walle...

I hope you wouldn't also suggest using a dex with 100k/day volume, and receiving pedocoins?

These privacy-enhancing technologies would be good if a fraction of the people advertising their merits actually used them, but the reality is, the only people using coinjoins/monero/dex are people who need to, which is a huge problem to associate yourself with.

Re:IRS Says ‘Dozens’ of New Crypto, Cybercriminals Are Ident... by ryanlol on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:07AM (#21512952)
That's a terrible article. The only source is a reddit user who made two short posts with very little details.

The sort of responsiveness described from LE by the poster also sounds downright unbelievable, I'd bet that's a fake story.