It's possible that you'll grow to rely on the helicopter to climb the mountain, but hopefully what you take away from it is that there is in fact a path (or accept that there's not - and you might has well climb a different mountain).

There are people that let themselves go: eat unhealthy and gain weight, exercise too little and lose muscle and cardio, etc. Then when one day they look in the mirror, realize what they've become, and it motivates them to eat healthy for a period of time, hit the gym etc.

In other words, they wait until they have an issue then solve it. They are re-active, not pro-active.

Alternatively, you can maintain your physical health by always being mindful of what you eat and making sure to get adequate exercise, etc.

Meditation is the same deal: don't wait until the day you have serious trauma to deal with in order to start a practice of mindfulness. Do not be reactive about it. Like physical health, it is far better to Maintain and be Proactive than to let it go then React.

So if you reach the top of the mountain: do you just roll back down to the bottom and then have to start all over again? Or do you actively maintain your position?

If it helps you find ways to meditate, or simply discover that you can meditate, or that the benefits of meditating matter to you, that could help your practice immensely.

I'm not saying it's for everyone (it's definitely not), but if you can find ways to leverage it I really believe it can be a helpful tool for growth, healing, and what the hell, just having fun.

I don't share this experience. Some experiences stick but for me overall after a week or so a lot of the "revelations" seem pretty crackpotty.

However the older I get, the more useful the 'revelations' (I rather call them insights) become. As in: I can actually use them to do things better in daily life.

What it offers, though — in the only way I know how to describe — is an alternative perspective. It’s like stepping outside of your usual self and evaluating things from an almost objective and completely different point of view. It’s this perspective that allows for revelations that otherwise wouldn’t happen in a sober state. This is a result of physiology and the chemical interactions in the brain due to ingestion of the substance.

It’s quite an amazing experience. Sometimes it can be scary, or odd or just funny. But in my experience, it has led to some very profound experiences and insights.

It made me pay attention to different things than I would normally pay attention to - things I arguably should have paid more attention to. Specifically social cues. I would repeat peoples words in my head over and over. I would go over written words and try to imagine the tone of voice very carefully.

It also made me change my behavior (temporarily), partly as a result of the different way I was paying attention. I got to see how people responded to that changed behavior (they responded very positively).

It's absolutely possible while sober, but it can be quite effortless and accidental on a trip. I'm also not so sure all people have these experiences while sober, even if they could - it takes work. Psychedelics can be good at breaking down mental patterns and guards, exposing the things you typically miss or avoid.

Or it may aid in giving one even more trauma. The outcome differs from person to person, I'm only offering my anecdotes based on my experience and people I know who dabble in psychedelics and meditation. The risk can be distilled to the simple idea of a crutch. Of course, not everyone will take it as a crutch.

> But FWIW, this research seems to suggest one does not need to keep using psilocybin to have its long-lasting beneficial effects:

And I relate this risk precisely because, in my opinion, most or many people will not deploy the same discipline in using psychedelics as conducted in the study or even use the psychedelics for the same purposes as the study. Once faced with the boredom of the non-psychedelic state of mind, people get agitated. But it's precisely facing this boredom and this agitation which will help them grow -- boredom and agitation are as much apart of reality and the human experience as is excitement and ecstasy.

The overwhelming majority of anecdotal stories I've read suggest the exact opposite, in that people perceive a lasting (for some time at least) sense of peace, not agitation.

Or perhaps by agitation you were referring to desire to re-experience the psychedelic experience rather than remaining content with peacefulness. I'd say this is quite common, and I can appreciate that a disciplined meditation practice is a fine idea, but I've yet to see any particularly compelling reason to believe a disciplined meditation practice is the only answer.

My guess at it is that for most (but not necessarily all) people:

(Disciplined psychedelic practice + Disciplined meditation practice) >

(Disciplined psychedelic practice + decent meditation practice) >

Disciplined meditation practice >

Disciplined psychedelic practice >

Undisciplined psychedelic or meditation practice

But this is just a guess. I feel quite certain no one actually knows the proper answer to the question, but there's certainly no shortage of people who think they do.....which is kind of at the heart of what this whole business is all about, as far as I can tell.

There is no reason to believe that such a community of people is representative of the general population or the effects that psychedelics would have on them when combined with meditation and the guidance of one or more therapists.

Are there any psychedelics that are openly prescribed the way other "prescription drugs" are? I mean just saying "Abuse of prescription drugs" is such an ambiguous thing. If you're referring to opioids, etc that have an extreme physically addictive effect, that's not at all like how psychedelics work.

That is a very different claim than:

> Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy.

... which is what the discussion started with.

In total I might have taken magic mushrooms maybe 10 times. Now I don't really feel the need to anymore, but I think it could be interesting to try some time in the future with my girlfriend.

Most of my friends don't use psychedelics in any way anymore. Perhaps in part because many friends are starting families now and it's hard to find the time when having a girlfriend and/or children, etc...

I do agree that always combining meditation with any substance could lead to a dependence on that substance to experience the deepest meditative states. However, used once in a while (which is the most I really want psychedelics anyway), I can agree with the findings in this paper, the experience sticks with you and can be remembered.

pazimzadeh's analogy is spot on.

> Right. If you're trying to metaphorically reach the peak of a mountain, psychedelics are like a helicopter that lets you fly around, find the path and even reach the top.

> It's possible that you'll grow to rely on the helicopter to climb the mountain, but hopefully what you take away from it is that there is in fact a path (or accept that there's not - and you might has well climb a different mountain).

I'm not going to argue that some people are not helped and I think there is a lot of interesting research.

But there seems to be a lot of people who think there must be some deeper meaning when you use psychedelics so they sit down and try and think about negative things to work them through, get stressed out and starting to spiral in a negative thought loop that is not really based in reality (like "my friends do not really like me, I suck").

Then they have a horrible trip and really did not learn from it because, your brain is often pretty stupid on psychedelics, but frame it as a positive experience on forums. It would be like people not handling alcohol saying "Yeah, sure I really went crazy and fought my dad, destroyed my car and ended up crying in a bush, but I really learned something about myself". No, the drugs made your brain think in a shitty way.

Maybe I'm just cynical but I'd say don't try to get deep with psychedelics until you are really used to them. Have fun and do the "abusing party drugs" part or watch a funny movie instead.

You don’t need to “really get used” to psychedelics by abusing them at parties in order to use them effectively. You just need to learn proper technique. You won’t learn that at parties or funny movies.

Steps for productive psychedelic sessions:

Choose a calm, quiet, pleasant environment.

Have someone you absolutely trust present. No other distractions. Fewer people the better, ideally only one other.

Lie down. If psilocybin makes you nauseous, you may want to purge if you can’t handle it. Nausea will die down as the trip builds up.

Close your eyes. Wear a sleep mask if you want.

Listen to calming, ambient music or calming white noise, headphones are best.

Dive in. I repeat, dive in. Focus should be inside not outside.

After the trip, write everything down.

That is just elitist talk about thinking there is a correct way to use those drugs. "Abusing drugs" while listening to calm music is not better than "abusing drugs" while watching a funny movie. There is no higher purpose and there is so much myth around these drugs that people say to make themselves feel good.

The best way to ensure a good trip is to be comfortable yes but to be alone with your thoughts listening to some calming music that they usually not listen to is not comfortable for a lot of people. That is how people end up thinking they must think about rough stuff, end up in negative thought loops and as they are not used to the drug it scares them and they cannot easily get out.

If they instead focus on just enjoying the serotonin and fun visuals while doing something that you almost certainly know you will love it will usually work out better. That could be watching a movie, listening to music they love, chat about fun memories, watch a tv-show that they have seen tons of time before but always gives them comfort.

If they then become uncomfortable their brain will be back on topic quickly because they are doing something that love. Meditation and shit like that can come later when they know how a trip is, know it will end, know how it can feel in their body and mind.

As marmadukester39 says, research - and there has been tons of it since the 50s, John Lilly was the pioneer - disagrees with you.

Not only is your advice based on assumptions that do not hold ("it will usually work out better", "enjoying the serotonin", "brain will be back on topic") but it's actively dangerous since it introduces non-deterministic outside inputs that experienced psychonauts _all agree_ can be devastatingly hard to deal with.

Doing psychedelics at a party is playing russian roulette with your sanity, fullstop.

I urge you to read John Lilly's autobiography "The Scientist" to see how a scientific framework for psychedelic research can be created from scratch and lead to useful experiments. You also get to learn about productive models to apply when doing this sort of work.

Except that is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you should be in a set and setting that you are really comfortable with. I.e. a lot of people love watching sitcoms for example and feel very comfortable doing that. Their mind will react very predictable because the set and setting is insanely familiar. It will guide your mind through a very predictable trip.

Trying to meditate when you are not used to it when doing psychedelics for the first time? That is a non-predictable setting and then when people start worry because they feel bad they are also thinking about why their parents never really hugged them and start spiraling.

I would say bad trips are pretty rare in practice but I would say almost all I have noticed among people or people have written about have been:

Chaotic outside influence like people behaving badly, them being in an unfamiliar environment or becoming scared because they feel ill.

or

People in perfectly fine settings sitting down and start spiraling because they suddenly think they are not doing well in life, are not liked or whatever. That usually starts by them seeking depth or thinking about things to get more out of a trip. Which is perfectly fine but it is not the best way to avoid a bad trip.

>Doing psychedelics at a party is playing russian roulette with your sanity, fullstop.

I did not say that you should do psychedelics at a party even if I think that roughly the same case of bad trips as trying to "be deep" when tripping.

For most people that is NOT being alone with their own thoughts while listening to music they usually do not listen to. If you usually meditate and listen to ambient music, go a head and try it. If you never do that then do something you are comfortable with, if you love watching old episodes of The Office you will love it even more and be even happier if tripping. You will not have a bad trip and if you start to feel uneasy you will snap out of it easily.

Because your state of mind is where you want it to be and you are where you are comfortable, watching a for example a tv-show.

I do agree that you shouldn’t ascribe too much weight to certain things, but personally I’d say this is applicable more to specific spiritual conclusions, “seeing god,” etc. No, you didn’t see god, you were taking a hallucinogen and were high as balls.

Its predictable:

Have a bad experience?

“Whaat no way dude, you must have taken something else or you were predisposed to schizophrenia you should have predicted that and checked your family history and genetics first! This experience is totally invalid to us and anyone considering using our favorite psychadelic”

Develop schizophrenia?

“[abbreviated version of the same response]”

Have an interesting idea?

“Just an anecdote! More research necessary”

Psychosis valuable? The difference between clinical psychosis and a psychedelic breakthrough experience is that the latter is integrated. The Psychonaut finds a way to make it part of his psyche and thus neutralize the dissonance.

Those who talk about predisposition really have no clue regarding proper psychedelic use. Psychosis is the whole point. But, taking place inside a framework that allows for integration. There is a reason shamans have rituals.

But if that's true, replace "psychosis" in the preceding arguments about the dangers with "failure to integrate the experience".

Same danger, different name.

It still needs to be acknowledged, not brushed away. Frameworks and rituals do not remove this danger. They may alter the risks, but it still occurs within them.

Undoubtedly true, but there are several therapeutic approaches to trauma which are much better understood. We should do more research into psilocybin but it seems to me like the better understood therapies should be tried first.