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Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by jermaustin1 on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @02:44PM (#21466336)
I'm a consultant, so this doesn't really match 1:1 with expectations of a salaried employee.

My work phone goes into DnD from 5pm until 8am. I don't answer emails or phone calls, and I don't make exceptions for free.

If I'm on call for a weekend, I bill 16 hours, regardless of if I worked, because I cannot go anywhere if I'm needed at my laptop.

When I go on vacation, I leave my phone at home and take an sim-less android, and buy a new sim/number when I reach my destination.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by munk-a on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:35PM (#21468781)
A while back while working in a game company as one of those who could resurrect the server I was the in-house DB expert, this sounds a bit stricter but close to the philosophy we took during a company-wide winter break we had, we had shifts where someone was expected to be phone/text/email immediately responsive to error notifications coming out of the server, that person would then triage and, in the event they couldn't handle the issue, be able to pull in other folks as needed according to their availability - for instance if there was an issue with a data corruption I'd likely be pulled in.

Thankfully that never happened because while we were all quite respectful about each other's time due to the jurisdiction and industry we worked in none of us were eligible for OT even during stat holidays. Were that company within a more reasonable line of business I'd demand a setup like that and feel perfectly justified - and that's pretty much why I don't work in the games industry anymore.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by wry_discontent on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @03:14PM (#21466674)
Do you have any advice for younger developers looking to get into the consulting life? I really hate the 9-5 life, and consulting seems like the best way to break out of it.
Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by jermaustin1 on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @03:23PM (#21466768)
Be a contractor a bunch of time, build up your network on linked in, and "Always Be Closing" small projects with your network. Each time a past manager moves to a new department, new company, new something, I reach out after a couple of months to see if they have any gaps in their current team I can temporarily fill.

It takes a lot of work to not work that much. I used to spend 20% of my time selling/pitching/quoting/etc for free.

Right now I have a semi-stable 30-35hr/week gig, so I'm not having to sell any.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by Ididntdothis on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @05:33PM (#21468308)
From my experience these gigs are great but also dangerous. When I was consultant I got lazy and complacent once i had a good gig and stopped selling. when this one customer went away I was back at zero.
Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by jermaustin1 on Thursday November 07, 2019 @07:54AM (#21472732)
I agree with that. I've actually cut my income by a lot just because I don't do as much work. But I'm getting to an age where I don't really want to work more than this anyway.

So now I just need to keep upping my rate.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by rorykoehler on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @03:41PM (#21466994)
Don't expect consulting to be less demanding. If anything you will work more.
Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by mywittyname on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:15PM (#21467383)
And expectations are much higher (assuming your an indy contractor).
Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by Ididntdothis on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @05:37PM (#21468337)
From my experience being a highly paid consular is a good experience. There are high expectations but you also get treated well and usually get what you need quickly, be it information, meetings or something else.
Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by overcast on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @03:20PM (#21466740)
Just start doing it, in your free time. You'll be burning the candle at both ends for a while as you build up clients, but you're young, you've got the energy and the time.
Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by ticmasta on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @03:39PM (#21466969)
>> Just start doing it, in your free time. You'll be burning the candle at both ends for a while as you build up clients, but you're young, you've got the energy and the time.

While you're employed? This is terrible advice. You get consulting money for combining expertise with availability. Younger employees have neither of these. If I found out one of my salaried employees was moonlighting I'd immediately be looking for evidence that it had the slightest impact on their responsibilities & performance. I'd be very surprised not to find any PDQ

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by cryoshon on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:07PM (#21467304)
>If I found out one of my salaried employees was moonlighting I'd immediately be looking for evidence that it had the slightest impact on their responsibilities & performance

a predictable response, but it's the wrong one which will surely lose your company plenty of money and valuable employees extremely rapidly while generating a tremendous amount of ill-will from the people in your network. really, it's the attitude that's creating the problematic and unprofitable approach here. aside from being disgustingly invasive and utterly reprehensible from a social perspective, you've also put yourself in a position where you're spending your company's time on something that will never generate it any financial returns, only more costs when the employee discovers your snooping and inevitably ditches you and you need you find a replacement on short notice.

the correct response here is to re-evaluate how much you're paying the employees that are moonlighting because it clearly isn't enough to keep them appeased, which means that by definition it isn't enough to keep them operating at 100% during the hours you expect to be getting 100% of their energy and potential for productive output. in other words, moonlighting employees need a raise because at the salary you're paying them, they know they can't afford to stop looking for more opportunities to work for pay. when you do find a reason to give that employee a raise proactively, you'll increase their output to the level you thought you were purchasing with the initial salary negotiations. you'll also increase their loyalty to the company, and avoid intruding on their private life, which is explicitly, irrevocably, and unimpeachably beyond your purview, consideration, or examination under any conditions whatsoever.

in a nutshell: focus on things you can change, then stay in your lane.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by PragmaticPulp on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:35PM (#21467633)
> the correct response here is to re-evaluate how much you're paying the employees that are moonlighting because it clearly isn't enough to keep them appeased,

Might be true for some people, but it's not the primary motivation for freelancers. Usually it's the highly-skilled, highly-paid people who are in a position to pick up freelance work, not your lowest-paid workers at the bottom of the hierarchy. They do it not because they need the money, but because it's there for the taking and they get to work on something interesting while they do it.

With a salaried dayjob, your effective hourly rate goes down with each additional hour you work. With a freelance job, your effective income goes up with each additional hour worked.

Someone who has both types of job at the same time has an incentive to minimize their input to their dayjob so they can maximize the incremental income from their freelancing work. Sure, theoretically a perfect employee could keep their dayjob perfectly isolated from freelancing work, but in practice people with an hourly side hustle can't resist the temptation to sandbag at work.

The whole crux of the argument for shorter workdays and shorter workweeks is that people only have so many productive hours each week. Past the point of diminishing returns, their work quality and productivity drop. If someone is working 40 hour weeks, commuting, and also freelancing for another 10-30 hours per week, which job gets their best hours? Which job gets their least productive hours?

In my experience, side-hustle freelancers always let their dayjob work output slip, whether they expect to or not. This is why you need to watch employees very closely as soon as you get wind that they're freelancing.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by learc83 on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:03PM (#21468553)
Almost everyone I know has some kind of side hustle. Whether it's a job, a business, a serious hobby whatever. And unless you hire a 22 year old with zero responsibilities, you're never going to get 100% from anyone.

It's absurd to expect 100% in the first place. All you should be concerned with is whether or not someone is getting their work done. Not whether they are capable of doing even more.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by chownie on Friday November 08, 2019 @06:26AM (#21481364)
Would you watch an employee closely if their performance dipped after they started a hobby game development project? Or night classes? How about if they just had a new born?

Do you also acknowledge the weeks their performance is better than average? Do you compensate them for it, or is it just a given?

You have the right to be concerned about someone's time but only while they are at work. Your employees get to do what they want outside of work hours.

I'd wager those X hours a week in the office are often not the most important part of your life, why should it be for them?

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by logfromblammo on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:46PM (#21467776)
As businesses have slashed-and-burned the concept of job security for salaried workers, they can no longer expect an iota of "all for the company" esprit-de-corporation buy-in, from anyone. The workers all know that they will be dropped like a live grenade the exact millisecond that they become unprofitable, so we're all looking out for ourselves now.

Every second you are employed, you should be keeping one eye on whether your current employer is about to screw you, and another eye on your exit strategy for when they inevitably do. Scan the job postings monthly. Never reject a feeler that comes through your network. No loyalty for the disloyal.

If I found out that my boss was cracking down on a co-worker for suspected moonlighting, I'd start looking for other work myself.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by overcast on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @03:44PM (#21467021)
You sound like a terrible employer, and I would immediately be looking for employment elsewhere. MANY people work multiple jobs in this world. If they are doing the work assigned to you during the hours agreed upon, what say do you have otherwise? You don't own people.
Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by i_haz_rabies on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @03:59PM (#21467192)
Booooooooo not cool. If someone is underperforming, do what you will. But why would you go looking for it just because they're doing a second job? What if they had a kid and were getting less sleep, would you put them under the microscope then?
Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by PragmaticPulp on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:30PM (#21467582)
> If someone is underperforming, do what you will. But why would you go looking for it just because they're doing a second job?

I've done some freelance work while also having a full-time job. It's great at first, when you still think that you can give 100% to your dayjob and fit the freelance work into your free time on evenings and weekends. If you can find relaxed contract work that fits to your schedule without detracting from your dayjob, then by all means go for it.

The problem is that contract work is rarely perfectly asynchronous like that. It won't take long until the company has some questions about your work that require a phone call during daytime hours. Or they find a one-liner issue that they need fixed ASAP, not when you have free time. Or they say they would like to continue paying you for contract work, but only if you can start responding faster during the day and turning requests around more quickly.

All of these pressures start adding up, tempting you to sandbag your salaried dayjob so you can have more hours to rake in that incremental hourly contracting money. In my case, I chose to give up contracting to avoid any moral, ethical, or legal breaches with my day job. However, I've seen many junior employees sabotage their own career progress by spreading themselves too thin with salaried work and freelancing work. Something has to give.

Worse yet, I've seen at least one case where someone used their company laptop and company phone for the contracting work for clients. Per your employment agreement, that puts the ownership of the code into a gray area. You don't want to go there, but when the clients are hammering your e-mail and phone for an answer it's tempting to just give in and interleave that work with your dayjob. Bad idea.

Finally, there's a myth that employees have a finite amount of work each week. When we do sprint planning, we calibrate to velocity, based on how much work the employee got done last week. I rely on my employees to help inform me about reasonable estimates and to help judge task complexity. Side hustlers have a misaligned incentive to exaggerate complexity, sandbag on tasks, and otherwise manipulate the system to minimize their dayjob workload. Less dayjob work equals more time for freelance income.

Bottom line: Some people can pull it off in rare circumstances, but more often than not a side hustler on your team will drag everyone down.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by joyeuse6701 on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:01PM (#21468533)
I know, same with a relationship, especially serious ones, like a wife or husband. Even families, my god, the commitment and drain is so immense that they must drag everyone down, each dependent like a separate side hustle. Employers should monitor employees and sniff out potential relationships and nip them in the bud before they begin. /s
Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by munk-a on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:51PM (#21468907)
> If I found out one of my salaried employees was moonlighting I'd immediately be looking for evidence that it had the slightest impact on their responsibilities & performance.

You don't own the lives of those you employ. While it's perfectly reasonable that if you see quality slippage you should react - actively searching for an excuse to fire someone for having a side gig is like a weird possessive and jealous relationship. Additionally, if folks at your company are picking up side gigs then maybe you should review your compensation because there's probably a reason people aren't content with their current working situation.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by clarry on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:04AM (#21473779)
> Additionally, if folks at your company are picking up side gigs then maybe you should review your compensation because there's probably a reason people aren't content with their current working situation.

Not just compensation but other stuff like the ability to take on different types of projects and learn new stuff on the job.

If I have a job that has me do the same thing with the same tech stack for whoever knows how long, I'm going to grow stale. I don't want to grow stale, that's both boring and also denying myself future opportunities and generally just putting myself at a disadvantage. Possibly very screwed if/when the company decides I'm no longer needed.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by chownie on Friday November 08, 2019 @06:19AM (#21481325)
This is a shortcut to major employee churn. Don't over-manage people, acknowledge and accept that the instant they clock out you no longer have any right to their time.

If they're moonlighting, it means either you or they are missing something in your work contract, that should concern you.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by wolco on Thursday November 07, 2019 @12:42AM (#21470746)
Would you knock them for going out for dinner? Or going to night school?

You realize that moonlighting gives them skills they can use to help you.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by shantly on Thursday November 07, 2019 @01:25AM (#21470925)
I notice many C-suite and founder folks have like 10 things with a “-present” date on them on LinkedIn. Seems fine for them. So fine for me too. Or am I actually more important and doing more work for this company than the CEO? Surely not. That would be silly.
Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by synt4x1k0 on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:11PM (#21467344)
Is this reasonable for many other jobs?

If you were working as a painter, a carpenter, a landscaper etc. Would people find it acceptable if you painted for an hour and charged for 15 hours? Just because they needed you for one?

To be clear, I am not attempting to demonize you or anything, but to me, this seems like a sort of entitlement that tech workers have that some other workers just cannot experience.

How can other professionals obtain that level of freedom?

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by jermaustin1 on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:19PM (#21467451)
If I hired a painter and I told them they couldn't go home, go out to lunch, or leave the premises for 16 hours, even if they only take 10 minutes to paint, I'm paying them for that time.

If a company puts a demand on your time, they need to pay for that time no matter what your profession. So when I'm on call on a weekend and I'm expected to answer my phone and be immediately available and connected to the client, I'm billing them for the fact that I cannot leave the confines of my internet.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by tiew9Vii on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:16PM (#21468633)
Absolutely this.

I worked for one of the big tech vanity names held as a poster child in the AU. They started to introduce mandatory on-call, which was non-negotiable. For an extra $200 AUD (ex tax) a week, you had the privilege of sacrificing all your personal time. Carrying a laptop, having constant phone-signal, not drinking, and being completely available within 15-30 minutes of the first ping was mandatory; otherwise, you could be facing disciplinary action.

Effectively it's a huge pay cut at less than minimum wage. For the loss of personal hours, you'd get significantly more money taking any minimum wage job. I don't go to work for free, I go to pay the bills.

Then the management blackmail starts, you get free food...a deli counter and fridge of soft drinks which I never used anyway. Then you get the be a team player, take it for the team emotional blackmail.

I'd happily do on-call on a best attempt if I'm available I'll answer the call for free. Restrict my personal time/activities outside work, I want paying at least minimum wage per hour after your company just IPO'd and worth several billion.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by sundvor on Thursday November 07, 2019 @04:59AM (#21471860)
That narrowed it down quite nicely.. what a harrowing policy!

I find it a bit despicable in the AU when owners who are the only ones to really benefit in case of success (never seen a stock option here) say we are a startup and have to make sacrifices to make it (big) etc.

First sight of trouble and your job is gone; I struggle to see the upside for anyone other than the owners.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by novok on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @05:11PM (#21468075)
It's not about reasonable, it's about putting a disincentive price to an action. Many abuses of power come from the abusers not having to pay the price. They might not want you to work on the weekends if it costs them a lot. You often need to put an explicit price to these things, or people who do not respect informal boundaries will push them.

The entire point is to not work during that time.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by thrower123 on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:20PM (#21467462)
When my dad worked as a mechanic in a power plant, if they went down and had to call him in on a day off, it was a guaranteed minimum of four hours that they had to pay him, even if it only took an hour to fix whatever it was. Almost always at time and a half, as he'd already put in his 40. Double time on scheduled holidays.

You should have to pay for on-call service.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by munk-a on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:40PM (#21468814)
I don't know about painter/carpenter/landscaper, but if you want to talk about plumber, they will be paid for every minute on site, their commute and usually their advertised "minimum visit time" if the job is particularly short.

When you are informally on-call you are unable to enjoy your time to the fullest, your employer is demanding a price from you without compensating you for your time, it is an obligation of yours for yourself, your friends and family and your co-workers to demand fair compensation for this time - that's a key component of labour exchange in the free market and good unions exist to help protect those rights for junior employees who tend to have less leverage when negotiating their rights than more senior folks.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by ska on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:24PM (#21467505)
> Would people find it acceptable if you painted for an hour and charged for 15 hours?

It is perfectly common (and reasonable) to be expected to be compensated something for being available outside your normal hours.

E.g. many plumbers will charge you extra (or build into their fees) for a sunday emergency call, why shouldn't a developer ?

If I were in that consultants shoes I probably wouldn't propose 16 hours, but for sure I would bump my hourly rate (say 1.5x) or a min charge of 4 hours or something, if you wanted me available on say an hours notice over the weekend. If you wanted me available at the drop of a hat it would be more.

Scheduling normal work over weekends, etc. is a different issue, but being "on call" should always involve some compensation for the impact on your life.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by barry-cotter on Thursday November 07, 2019 @04:35AM (#21471738)
> How can other professionals obtain that level of freedom?

By being in such demand that the people who want to hire you will agree to those contract terms. If you’re extremely good at what you do and what you do makes our saves people lots of money they’ll deal with your problems. At the other end if your client is willing to keep on paying ever escalating rates they can be massive unreasonable assholes and you’ll still keep on working with them because the money’s just that good.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by cocomittens on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @05:22PM (#21468193)
Pretty sure if you are on call as a doctor or medical professional you get compensated for that time, yeah.
Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by invalidOrTaken on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:18PM (#21467430)
Market power, market power, market power.

In other words, no, it's not "reasonable" (reasonable being whatever people can agree on) for a painter or carpenter, but this is not intrinsic to the job itself. It's incidental to the accident that those jobs generally have less market power. If a carpenter did manage that, they could do it too.

Re:In Praise of the 5-Hour Workday and Other ‘Radical’ Ideas by eropple on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @07:37PM (#21469240)
Having done similar to your last point: I just used GVoice and turned it off for vacations. Little bit easier. ;)