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Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by bko on Monday November 04, 2019 @09:31AM (#21441942)
Would you feel the same way if Uber complied privately and the article read:

"Uber shares real-time rider information with government agency"?

It seems like Uber can't win. If they share information, they're violating the trust and privacy of their riders. If they don't they still don't care about privacy but they're now also flouting regulators.

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by rhn_mk1 on Monday November 04, 2019 @10:23AM (#21442433)
> It seems like Uber can't win.

Which is fine. They chose to collect the information, and they are facing a bad look following that decision.

Of course, their business model might not work without the collection, but not every business model is guaranteed to look good.

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by Spivak on Monday November 04, 2019 @11:00AM (#21442821)
But Uber is offering a service that by its very nature requires that you expose the service provider to information you may wish to keep private. How is this the service provider's fault? It's not like they're going out of their way to add tracking into something that doesn't require it.

Like this is a little nuts, if you buy one of those GPS trackers for your kids you don't get to act shocked when you find out the company has their location records. You get to be angry if they use those records for anything other than providing you service but of course they have them.

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by diffeomorphism on Monday November 04, 2019 @11:07AM (#21442881)
If a service "by its very nature" does shady things, maybe that service should not be offered in the first place?

Critcizing users afterwards that they "can't act shocked" for having these things done to them is only playing a blame game.

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by XCabbage on Monday November 04, 2019 @12:08PM (#21443727)
This is a very daft take.

It's not even remotely shady for a service to inherently involve knowing where you are. That's something that is true of every brick and mortar store, and indeed every cab driver. Yet the government doesn't demand that those businesses provide real-time feeds of information about the movements of their customers, and if the government were to do so and they were to object on privacy grounds, we wouldn't take it to mean that their entire business model is inherently immoral and all shops should cease to exist.

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by Spivak on Monday November 04, 2019 @11:27AM (#21443126)
But it's not shady at all. Like these bike companies track the location of the bikes with GPS. Any when you go for a ride on one you are by proxy being tracked with GPS. Like this isn't magic or unexpected. Are you mad that an airlines have your location information while you're on the plane? Are you gonna demand the FAA stop tracking flights for rider privacy?

But nobody actually getting the blame since it would be weird if anyone was actually mad at this. Does anyone seriously believe that using Find My iPhone doesn't allow Apple access to your phone's location for the purposes of showing you where it is?

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by CountSessine on Monday November 04, 2019 @11:28AM (#21443142)
Renting scooters and necessarily keeping track of them is “shady”? What else is shady?
Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by stale2002 on Monday November 04, 2019 @11:27AM (#21443131)
It's not shady though!

That's the point. If you buy a GPS tracker, for example, by definition it will track your GPS location.

Would you expect a GPS tracker to not track your GPS location? Because that is what you are saying.

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by ysavir on Monday November 04, 2019 @11:04AM (#21442858)
> But Uber is offering a service that by its very nature requires that you expose the service provider to information you may wish to keep private.

Uber's ride hailing service, sure. But the same is not true for the scooter and bike services, which have no need for such information.

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by aeorgnoieang on Monday November 04, 2019 @12:20PM (#21443859)
Huh? They have to know where the scooters and bikes are so they can be collected to be recharged.
Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by ysavir on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:23PM (#21445364)
Do they need to know where they are at every given moment, and collect data on each customer in association with where they're coming from and where they're going?

No, they just need to know where they are when:

1. They run a collection routine 2. The bike/scooter is low on battery.

There is no info they need in association with the rider's trip. Or at least not, as the GP states, info required "by nature". That perspective is true of ride sharing (the driver needs to know where to pick up and drop off) but false in relation to bikes/scooters (no need to know start/end points, just need to know where the bike is during collection or low battery, and not in association with a rider).

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by ameister14 on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:52PM (#21445706)
The rider uses an app to find a bike/scooter near them. That requires real-time location data
Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by icebraining on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:25PM (#21444653)
And also to be rented, if the user doesn't happen to have one in sight.
Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by jobigoud on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @12:55AM (#21450018)
They need to know where the scooters are but they don't really need to know where the customers are though.

Consider a similar system that would work with coin operated scooters. They can have GPS in the vehicle without constant association with users.

In any cases these two tracking databases, where is each scooter and who is on which scooter, should be separate so they can provide the former to law enforcement without disclosing citizens whereabouts.

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by TulliusCicero on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:31PM (#21444721)
How are they going to display the bikes and scooters on a map inside of the app without GPS coordinates?
Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by jonfw on Monday November 04, 2019 @10:38AM (#21442599)
It seems like privacy issues are inherent to Uber's business model, and there is nothing they can really do to remedy that.
Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by defeatist on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:48PM (#21444945)
That’s rather defeatist. They could use the data for setting up the ride and then throw it away after the ride is complete. Their app could keep a local record for you that’s not shared with the company. There are a ton of ways they could protect your privacy but they actively choose not to.
Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by reaperducer on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:17PM (#21445302)
Anyone can watch you ride a shared scooter up to your house. That's public information. Privacy only comes into play if the scooter is taken inside your house. You have no legal expectation of privacy on a public street or sidewalk.
Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by snagglegaggle on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:58PM (#21446973)
No, GPS trackers on cars have in some cases been ruled a search.
Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by reaperducer on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @11:14AM (#21453669)
I don't need a GPS to watch someone ride a scooter.
Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by snagglegaggle on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @05:01PM (#21457208)
You don't, but what the court found was that putting a GPS tracker on someone's vehicle was materially different than having a real person shadow them all day.
Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by JohnFen on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:50PM (#21445692)
Not the OP, but I would feel the same way, yes. My concern about my local government knowing my whereabouts is equal to my concern about the likes of Uber knowing my whereabouts, so if Uber shared this data, it wouldn't really change my behavior in any way.

But I avoid using Uber-anything, in part due to Uber's data collection, so my opinion on this data sharing is probably not that important.

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by habnds on Monday November 04, 2019 @09:41AM (#21442045)
Seems like if Uber is going to use this data for their benefit society should be able to use it to ours as well for planning an infrastructure purposes for example.

The way that society does stuff like this is through government bodies. The real problem here seems like a lack of trust or oversight of government bodies, which creates the impossible situation you identify.

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by icebraining on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:08PM (#21445191)
> Seems like if Uber is going to use this data for their benefit society should be able to use it to ours as well for planning an infrastructure purposes for example.

I don't necessarily disagree, but "data used for their benefit" covers all data used by all businesses, from your emails stored by your provider (assuming you don't self-host) to trade secrets, etc.

So either we say the government should be able to access all data from everywhere (except the few that individuals store on their own) for planning purposes and such, or we must define why this data is different from other.

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by habnds on Monday November 04, 2019 @07:47PM (#21448487)
Fair point, I think there's a fundamental difference between the data collection done by a company like Uber or the FANG or whatever and the data that other companies collect in the normal course of business but it's hard for me to think of a good definition for the difference.

There's also the idea that maybe we should have total access to a currently unthinkable amount of data [0]

[0] https://www.wired.com/1996/12/fftransparent/

Re:L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out elect... by philipov on Monday November 04, 2019 @10:39AM (#21442602)
No one said Uber had to be able to win.