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Re:The Global Fertility Crash by AnimalMuppet on Thursday October 31, 2019 @07:23PM (#21414812)
So if the population grows from 1 (in units of 8 billion, say) to (1 + A), and the productivity per person goes from 1 to (1 + B), then the world economy goes from 1 to (1 + A) * (1 + B). If the population doesn't grow, then the economy only grows to (1 + B).

As you say, so what? Is the world economy some kind of deity, that we are here to serve its needs rather than our own? If each of us are the same (1 + B) better off, why do we care whether the global economy grew more or less?

As Edward Abbey said, "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell." If the growth actually leaves people better off, that's a positive. But if it just makes bigger numbers on a page, what's the point?

Re:The Global Fertility Crash by t-h-e-chief on Thursday October 31, 2019 @09:41PM (#21415594)
Exactly. This push for economic growth is a recent invention historically. Let’s go back to not fucking over each other or the planet for money. We should aim for 2 billion world population in the next few centuries.
Re:The Global Fertility Crash by mc32 on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:11PM (#21415719)
So go back to what pops were in 1930? If people would level off their mass consumerism and appetite to one up each other we could probably all live well at 1960s levels. But to get back down there it has to be carefully managed to avoid imbalances and collapses. Unfortunately history has some bad lessons for us to learn from; China, the early XX century’s idea of creating new super people and eliminating those of us who are weak or could have undesirable characteristics, and obviously worse. But, we do see education, especially for women along with jobs for them in the regular economy do lead to a quick decrease in TFR.
Re:The Global Fertility Crash by dweekly on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:59PM (#21415914)
Recent? Genesis 9:7
Re:The Global Fertility Crash by chillwaves on Friday November 01, 2019 @04:54AM (#21417136)
If you want to quote the bible, then quote the bible. Not everyone can be bothered to look it up.
Re:The Global Fertility Crash by anm89 on Friday November 01, 2019 @05:53AM (#21417324)
Amen
Re:The Global Fertility Crash by dredmorbius on Friday November 01, 2019 @04:02AM (#21416955)
Growth as a primary focus of economics dates only to the 1950s.

I believe it was Paul Romer who was asked at the time to survey the extant literature on growth. His report: there was none.

Re:The Global Fertility Crash by jdc on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:01AM (#21416185)
The verse says nothing about economic growth.
Re:The Global Fertility Crash by mensetmanusman on Friday November 01, 2019 @05:04PM (#21423675)
10 million max
Re:The Global Fertility Crash by paulddraper on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:30AM (#21416638)
I don't care about the world economy per se, but I do care about people.

One aspect seldom considered is the value of life itself.

> If each of us

Therein lies the consideration. Who is important? Who is "us"?

Are the people living important? Are the people not living important?

I.e. would it be a "bad thing" if you did not exist? I presume you think so. Should we think so?

Would it be a bad thing for another person to not exist? What about a future person?

---

The value, source, and identity of human life gets very religious/philosophical.

My beliefs include human life having intrinsic value, and I therefore would like there to be as many human lives as possible and for those lives to be good as possible.

You'll notice that my conclusion winds up equivalent to the economics notion of "collective utility" (1 + A) * (1 + B). That is true, but I prefer to think of it not as adding more pennies to a global piggy bank, but in a real altruistic sense of maximizing human experience.

Re:The Global Fertility Crash by AstralStorm on Friday November 01, 2019 @08:11PM (#21424998)
Your simple system is broken when a happiness sink (let's call him Bob) is introduced. Bob is extremely happy, but everyone else toils and is moderately miserable to make him happy.

Welcome to current society. Bob is the richest few.

Re:The Global Fertility Crash by xwolfi on Thursday October 31, 2019 @09:04PM (#21415384)
The analogy with the cancer cell is spot on, it sure feels we're still very much like one, having to spread and expand in our ever struggle against nature.

Imagine if we manage to find a way to create small long term ecosystems... then the cancer will spread to the stars and these birther catastrophists will be relieved: we'll go back to 10 birth a woman with 2 babies making it to 40 :D

Re:The Global Fertility Crash by d883kd8 on Thursday October 31, 2019 @08:54PM (#21415336)
It's a problem for rich people and governments, who get to take a fraction of everyone's productivity through surplus labor value (i.e. capital gains) and taxes.
Re:The Global Fertility Crash by greeneggs on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:31PM (#21415794)
It isn't just a problem for rich people, it is a problem for everyone who can save money. A growing population means that everything can grow accordingly (businesses, infrastructure, …) so there are good investment opportunities. If you can afford to save money, this means that there are productive things to do with that money, and you'll naturally get higher interest rates (and increasing stock prices, etc.). Higher interest rates aren't all good, but extremely low interest rates (like in Japan for the last ~25 years) aren't good either, especially if you want to save for retirement. Social Security isn't the only useful "pyramid scheme."
Re:The Global Fertility Crash by perl4ever on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:01PM (#21415677)
It seems to me obvious that if I have a computer, I am more productive than with a stone axe, and it is a more productive asset if I am using it.

There is obviously a surplus from combining labor with capital, and an inevitable struggle over allocating it, but I don't understand at all why people ostensibly think it's obviously all rightfully belonging to one or the other.

If I earn a dollar, and then I collect interest on it, then the interest is really a part of my wages that was withheld. It's not extra. Whether anyone is being cheated of the amount of the interest depends on whether I got the dollar honestly, or cheated or stole to get it, but that has nothing to do with the essential nature of labor or capital.

Re:The Global Fertility Crash by Descartes1 on Thursday October 31, 2019 @09:26PM (#21415508)
Rich people are the only ones who will get to reproduce.