News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by coldtea on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:29AM (#21386862)
>From my personal experience in nyc, and from talking to neighbors who own restaurants, small and family owned businesses are absolutely hurting. They’ve reduced staff, and owners are making up lost hours themselves

Well, if they were hurt with such a raise, perhaps they were not viable businesses and are better closed.

The employees might lose a crappy near-subsistence job, but both the employees and owners can then concentrate their efforts into something better...

Somehow Europe manages to have viable restaurants despite decent minimum wage and not tips-oriented compensation...

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by jedberg on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:53AM (#21387154)
> Somehow Europe manages to have viable restaurants despite decent minimum wage and not tips-oriented compensation...

They have a social safety net for all the people who aren't employable at that high wage. That's the difference. You can't massively increase minimum wage without a social safety net to go with it. And if your goal is both you need to start with the safety net, not the minimum wage increase.

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by dwild on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @11:29AM (#21388255)
> The employees might lose a crappy near-subsistence job, but both the employees and owners can then concentrate their efforts into something better...

Before the hike, both the employee and owners could do that... yet they didn't. Is the existence of a lower paid job make it harder to create something better? That seems really backward, because there will always be lower paying job.

> Somehow Europe manages to have viable restaurants despite decent minimum wage and not tips-oriented compensation...

Where does Europe has an higher minimum wage than $15 USD? That's excluding tipping which can bring that wage MUCH higher.

You can't really compare viability when the wage is actually lower....

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by Mirioron on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:00PM (#21388649)
The only country in Europe with a minimum wage above $15 an hour is Switzerland.[0][1] Also consider that the tax burden for poor people in Europe is higher, but this does get offset by the better social support structures.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_... [1] https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=RMW

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by xibalba on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:19AM (#21387423)
> viable restaurants

My experience in both the UK and Germany was the service is utterly terrible. Some people believe this is a worthy trade-off. I disagree ,and I reject the notion that the only acceptable answer is higher guaranteed wages.

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by thatfrenchguy on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:28AM (#21387518)
And my experience has a French person is that service in the US is terrible because waiters are ultra invasive (they interrupt me while I talk to say stupid stuff like « how is everything ? »). It’s called « cultural differences »
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by joker99 on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:53AM (#21387805)
I agree. Not once in both France or Germany did the waiter come to me and rushed me. I can sit for hours and no one bats an eye. In the US things are always rushed. They come to your table and annoy me _and_ expect a tip of min. 15%. Once, a waiter in NYC actually yelled at us because we didn't tip enough.
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by eej2ya1K on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:56AM (#21387179)
I'd rather work for my own business at $10 an hour than for a franchise or corporate chain at $20 an hour.
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by alfromspace on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:47AM (#21387079)
What if the alternative is unemployment?
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by admax88q on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:04AM (#21387261)
There are such efficiencies to be have in restaurants. In Japan I went to a curry restauraunt that was run by 2 staff. Two people did the cooking, taking orders, collecting bills, serving food. The whole operation was two staff.

Back home I went to an equivalent size burger joint that had 6 people on staff that I could see.

With good design and prep a curry restaurant was able to serve the same amount of food with 1/3 the staff. They could double the wage of the staff and still have money left over with better prep and design.

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by wasdfff on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:16PM (#21388842)
Plenty of places drop down staff. Taco bell cuts down to a staff of 2 during the night shit. However, if there is any sort of rush on food, it all breaks down.
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by admax88q on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @03:58PM (#21391347)
My point was that well designed and well run places can run during busy times with minimal staff.
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by coldtea on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:59AM (#21387210)
Well, then you don't have a society and economy that can support both employment and decent wages.

In which case you should take a long hard look at what's wrong with it instead of using semi-employment under horrible wages as a band aid...

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by Freak_NL on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:55AM (#21387166)
What makes the US unique that it needs to forego minimum wage? Unemployment isn't much different from most countries in Europe or other comparable economies.
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by eej2ya1K on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:58AM (#21387204)
Really? Really? Take a look at the unemployment in Spain or France and get back to me.

Also, not all countries in Europe have a minimum wage - there's no official minimum wage in Norway (although the de facto minimum wage is a lot higher than in the US).

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by coldtea on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:05AM (#21387272)
>Really? Really? Take a look at the unemployment in Spain or France and get back to me.

Really? Really? You think the unemployment in Spain and France is because of the minimum wage? They had the minimum wage decades before they had high unemployment (and inversely for the US).

Not to mention unemployment rate doesn't say much, since in the US it includes all kinds of subsistence semi-jobs that would qualify more like colonial deals in other countries -- among other manipulations:

"The answer lies in the measurement of unemployment. If you have not looked for a job in the last four weeks, you are not counted as being unemployed, because you are not counted as being part of the work force. When there are no jobs to be found, job seekers become discouraged and cease looking for jobs. In other words, the 4.1 percent unemployment rate does not count discouraged workers who cannot find jobs. (...) The US Bureau of Labor Statistics has a second measure of unemployment that includes workers who have been discouraged and out of the labor force for less than one year. This rate of unemployment is 8.2 percent, double the 4.1 percent reported rate. (...) The US government no longer tracks unemployment among discouraged workers who have been out of the work force for more than one year. However, John Williams of shadowstats.com continues to estimate this rate and places it at 22 or 23 percent, a far cry from 4.1 percent. In other words, the 4.1 percent unemployment rate does not count the unemployed who do show up in the declining labor force participation rate." [1]

In any case, even with the given "unemployment rate" as the metric, the US is well below Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Guatemala, and other places, the same way it is, itself, ahead of France. Does that tell you much?

[1] https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2018/03/08/make-believe...

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by baud147258 on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:17PM (#21388851)
Funny, in France there's also the same kind of manipulation to reduce the official unemployment. And that for all people who stopped being considered unemployed, only a minority had actually found a job (I saw that figure a few years ago, so it might have changed, but I doubt it).
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by Freak_NL on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:07AM (#21387302)
Unemployment in France is at a ten year low.

The relatively high unemployment rate in Spain is not related to the minimum wage, but has been linked to their economy being driven mainly by tourism and construction. In fact, the minimum wage in Spain is neither very high nor very low compared to other European countries.

Are you blaming the higher unemployment ratios in those countries on the minimum wage?

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:54AM (#21387820)
The UK has a minimum wage and low unemployment. At the time it was introduced we were warned it would lead to increased unemployment but that turned out to be wrong.
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by Mirioron on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:11PM (#21388755)
The UK also discriminates by age when it comes to minimum wage though.[0]

The minimum wages per hour in the UK are:

* Apprentices: £3.90

* Under 18: £4.35

* 18 to 20: £6.15

* 21 to 24: £7.70

* 25 and over: £8.21

This isn't exactly the same type of minimum wage most other countries use. This would probably be considered age discrimination in some countries.

[0] https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:56PM (#21389328)
It's not perfect but there were still dissenting voices from businesses and politicians in opposition.