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Re:Tether: The Story So Far by falcolas on Monday October 28, 2019 @02:35PM (#21380057)
All of your use cases involve anonymity. Crypto currencies don’t provide anonymity. Sure it’s not directly tied to your name and address, but it’s quite possible to make that tie. Such cases are on the news fairly frequently.
Re:Tether: The Story So Far by esotericn on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:16PM (#21381137)
It doesn't matter whether most people's use cases are "truly" anonymous or not, because not everyone who makes an anonymous payment is the kingpin of a human trafficking ring who will actually have large amounts of resources brought to bear on them.

People use burner phones to get drugs for nights out. Theoretically none of this is really anonymous, you're pinging cell towers, you're probably on CCTV, etc etc. But realistically that doesn't matter and it works as a system.

Even something like Monero which might have claim to be truly untraceable really isn't because you're on like, an Intel ME machine and the NSA likely has backdoors in the Linux kernel and ... blah blah blah ...

But it's good enough.

Imagine if Hacker News required ID-verified real name front and center on every post. Throwaway accounts are impossible. They were never perfect anyway, but now they don't exist.

The discourse would change. Perhaps an individual might see it as being better, or worse, but it'd definitely be different.

The traditional banking system is that ID-verified world. Cryptocurrencies are the release valve.

FWIW I think Tether is bollocks.

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by RandomBacon on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:24PM (#21383205)
> Monero which might have claim to be truly untraceable

They haven't. The developers are very upfront about its limitations.

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by alwillis on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:59PM (#21382673)
Crypto currencies don’t provide anonymity.

It’s pretty easy to make bitcoin transactions anonymous.

1. Wasabi Wallet runs over Tor and has built-in support for CoinJoins: https://wasabiwallet.io

2. Samourai Wallet has Whirlpool, another mixing technology, among other security features: https://www.samouraiwallet.com/features

3. You can skip the usual exchanges and use Bisq for peer-to-peer trading over Tor, including selling BTC for fiat: https://bisq.network

4. Lightning network (a layer 2 network on top of Bitcoin) has exploded in popularity; it’s also a major privacy win for transactions: https://medium.com/breez-technology/lightning-network-routin...

Most wallets nowadays don’t let you reuse addresses; even with plain vanilla Bitcoin transactions, this makes it much more difficult to link an identity with a Bitcoin transaction.

And this is before Taproot and Schnorr signatures are added to the Bitcoin protocol in the not too distant future: https://blog.bitmex.com/the-schnorr-signature-taproot-softfo...

There's more but the point should be clear: it’s actually fairly easy to dramatically increase the anonymity of bitcoin transactions.

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by lawn on Monday October 28, 2019 @02:39PM (#21380105)
You're right that Bitcoin is only pseudo-anonymous. But there are cryptocurrencies like Monero which provides much better anonymity.

Also, anonymity isn't black and white. It would be very difficult for the Venezuelan government to prevent you from buying Bitcoin in-person and then walking out of the country, with your Bitcoin keys written on a small piece of paper or even memorized.

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by jcranmer on Monday October 28, 2019 @02:48PM (#21380188)
All Venezuela has to do is to make it illegal for anyone to sell you Bitcoin.

Effectively, the current situation is rather close to that: the financial system is predicated on Know Your Customer and Anti-Money Laundering regulations that make moving large amounts of money for anonymous purposes dangerous for financial institutions. Given that cryptocurrency has struggled to provide any rationale for its existence other than the anonymous money flows that government regulation is trying to root out, dealing with it as a financial institution raises regulatory compliance red flags. As the article demonstrates, this means that your only real option is to rely on criminals and hope that money moves through the system fast enough that the government doesn't notice and the criminals handling your wealth don't skim too much off.

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by lawn on Monday October 28, 2019 @02:53PM (#21380243)
And all the U.S. had to do is make drugs illegal, and it would disappear. (Or not.)

> other than the anonymous money flows

Are you saying that anonymous money is immoral and should be made illegal, and in the process dismissing all use cases that benefit from anonymity?

And no, cryptocurrencies are perfectly legal in most of the world.

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by jcranmer on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:04PM (#21380355)
I'm pointing out that anonymous money flows are already effectively illegal, given the KYC/AML laws. At some point, any Funny Money system you create has to interact with the fiat system so that people can actually do stuff like pay their utility bills, and if Funny Money is triggering compliance alarm bells, and at that point, well, read the article.

Something else to point out is that just because a system is unsustainable doesn't mean it will collapse immediately.

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by lawn on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:14PM (#21380463)
Oh alright. I don't see how this invalidates the use cases? The businesses that have payment processor problems aren't illegal, and can easily prove their revenue.

And I do agree that unsustainable systems don't collapse immediately. I've been waiting for Tether to collapse for years. But I don't think cryptocurrencies as a whole are unsustainable (the larger proper exchanges that don't use Tether as their "fiat option" should survive).

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by ncmncm on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:59PM (#21383946)
In any case real estate is exempt from KYC/AML. That is supposed to be why Chinese people own so much American farmland and so many Canadian houses.
Re:Tether: The Story So Far by CryptoPunk on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:14PM (#21383717)
Anonymous money flows aren't illegal. There are those that would like to make them illegal, but all they've managed to institute so far is KYC/AML laws relating to third party payment processors. These laws don't apply to cash or its electronic corollary, cryptocurrency.

Until a law is created that makes unmonitored use of physical and electronic cash illegal, anonymous money flows aren't across-the-board illegal.

One obstacle elitists have in instituting such laws is that enforcement would be costly, involving heavy-handed treatment of large numbers of end-users. Trusted third parties like banks are comparatively easy targets, being much less politically costly to repress.

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by kbenson on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:32PM (#21381338)
> And all the U.S. had to do is make drugs illegal, and it would disappear. (Or not.)

Well, yeah. Making drugs illegal makes them disappear. From legal sources. The illegal sources share a similar set of problems as noted. Am I going to get what I paid for? Will I get all of what I paid for? Will there be repercussions? How safe is this?

The drug market being illegal means that for the vast majority of people it's only worth using for fairly inconsequential things. Recreational drugs for the weekend or the equivalent. You might not want to source your cancer drugs there for the same reasons you might not want to source your car or house loan from some random internet entity. Trust. And dealing in an illegal market makes the higher levels of trust very hard, if not impossible, to achieve.

I think the point is that cryptocurrencies will be relegated to second class currencies for as long as they can't or aren't treated with the same trust a fiat currency is.

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by vageli on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:07PM (#21383108)
> > And all the U.S. had to do is make drugs illegal, and it would disappear. (Or not.)

> Well, yeah. Making drugs illegal makes them disappear. From legal sources. The illegal sources share a similar set of problems as noted. Am I going to get what I paid for? Will I get all of what I paid for? Will there be repercussions? How safe is this?

It has been fascinating to me to see how important brand and reputation are in the underground, otherwise struggling-to-be-anynomous markets. But then, even in the chans there were tripcodes.

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by stale2002 on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:06PM (#21380368)
No, they don't have to involve anonymity.

For example, lets take donating to WikiLeaks as an example. Anonymity is not needed for that, since they have never been charged with any crimes.

The only thing needed was a way to get around the banking cartel, that blocked payments to them, even though WikiLeaks was not charged with any crimes.

If it was 2011, being able to donate to WikiLeaks, was something that many people needed crypto for, regardless of anonymity.

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by mcnichol on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:24PM (#21381868)
Mixing coins or sending to a coldstore address freshly minted.

Each address is a new account, the paranoid of the groups create new accounts quite regularly for their transactions.

It is a low bar to learning this, I suggest reading the 101 level information first.

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by rolltiide on Monday October 28, 2019 @02:45PM (#21380159)
the other open secret is that you just create a new identity in an isolated sub namespace

you ring fence all the addresses in that space with Monero over VPN or TOR: Monero swapped to Bitcoin, Monero swapped to Ether, Monero swapped to Tether (ERC20/OMNI/TRC20), a general balance in Monero since merchants accept that too, and transact there. Swap back out to Monero if you need a withdrawal.

Pencil pushers can track addresses on one transparent blockchain all fuckin day till your grandma gets tainted coins after Thanksgiving and all her accounts closed by some paranoid compliance officer and overzealous dumbass public servant, while the rest of us get every good and service we expected anonymously.

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by vosper on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:11PM (#21383123)
> Monero swapped to Bitcoin, Monero swapped to Ether, Monero swapped to Tether

Is there a way to do this without going through some central exchange? I thought I'd read that (eg) Shapeshift was now doing KYC/AML checks, so would you still get identified there?

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by rolltiide on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:37PM (#21383844)
Morphtoken

Bisq

XMR.to because your clearnet identity already owns Monero

Re:Tether: The Story So Far by vkou on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:36PM (#21382503)
So, once you drive all the normies off the system, what makes you think that you're ever going to manage to turn your Monero into fiat?
Re:Tether: The Story So Far by rolltiide on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:02PM (#21382696)
I don't. It also works.