News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by ChrisMarshallNY on Monday October 28, 2019 @11:15AM (#21377700)
Ignoring dozens of repos (non-forked), and thousands of lines of testable, shipping code, is probably not helpful.

I was a manager for a long time. I loved long résumés and relevant material.

I was hiring expensive people to work on really important stuff, and there was no way that I wanted to rush the vetting.

Also, I never gave a single test, and I think I got it right, every time.

Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by grogenaut on Monday October 28, 2019 @12:42PM (#21378588)
As someone who does a lot of interviewing at a big company, by the time the candidate is in a room (virtual or real) with me large amounts of vetting has been done by managers and recruiting. I really only look at the resume for context if I even do at all. I'm there to cover a specific technical competency and soft competency, and any other data I can get in 45 minutes + bio break, make feel comfortable, and them asking questions.

I rarely have time to look at code repos unless asked by the manager/recruiter.

You are also likely interviewing with the wrong people. Most large companies are looking for as many of the best devs they can find for generic opportunities. They have many many slots to fill.

If you are looking for something very specific then you need to find a recruiter who does placement as well. Amazon (where I work) has two major hiring processes, direct to team where they are usually looking for a specialty or generalist and take the first qualified candidate, and generalized hiring where you have to pass a standard interview but then you begin interviewing managers and finding a fit. The second may be better for you, but you still have to pass a bog standard interview.

There is of course the third way which is have a friend on the inside do the pre fit and selling.

Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by jimbokun on Monday October 28, 2019 @02:58PM (#21380291)
Throw out everything else you are doing in those 45 minutes and just look at their repo and make a decision based on that. You'll get better results.

(Maybe spend a few minutes on the phone just to verify they are really the person who wrote all that code.)

Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by grogenaut on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:15AM (#21384211)
Guess you missed what I meant. The manager/recruiter covers that. If it's substantial then I would likely get called in to review it.

The on site interviews are checking for things like communications, soft skill, design, etc. Things that don't fully come across in a code repo and are hard to verify who did what.

We have tons of people who try and misrepresent themselves. It would be a waste of time for the 6 people on a loop to all read the repo. It would also be bad if we didn't cover the things we cover in the on-sites.

We are also required to keep loops the same for all candidates. So giving an offer to one candidates because they have a GitHub repo and a phone call and the rest don't and therefore have to come in is a no-no. Therefore they all come in.

Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by mypalmike on Monday October 28, 2019 @11:51AM (#21378023)
Large companies tend to aim for standardization in the hiring process. They want apples to apples comparisons as much as possible, largely for legal reasons, but also for tracking metrics. Unfortunately, someone submitting high quality GitHub repo links doesn't fit a model where not many candidates are doing that.
Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by armadsen on Monday October 28, 2019 @12:04PM (#21378154)
Apple's hiring is not that standardized. Each team has their own process. There are some common themes, but they definitely don't all use the same tests. I've interviewed with a few teams there over the years (have ultimately turned down offers for one reason or another). I've had a pretty wide array of experiences, and incidentally, never a BST question.

I've also generally had very good experiences interviewing with them - tough but entirely reasonable questions focused directly on my expertise and the tech the team is using. One that stands out in contrast to OP's complaint was an interviewer that brought in a stack of printouts of screenshots of apps I'd worked on and used them to spark a discussion of the work I'd done on them.

OP's experience, while annoying, and not surprising, is also not universal at Apple.

Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by TeMPOraL on Monday October 28, 2019 @12:44PM (#21378608)
> but also for tracking metrics.

Another point in case against overreliance on metrics. Optimizing your process for making it easier to measure can easily turn into looking for your keys under a lamp post on a street even though you've lost them in a park.

Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by e40 on Monday October 28, 2019 @11:57AM (#21378073)
And that process doesn't seem to be workout out too well, based on all the posts I see here.
Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by eclipxe on Monday October 28, 2019 @12:54PM (#21378740)
Selection bias.
Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by leshow on Monday October 28, 2019 @11:37AM (#21377887)
> Also, I never gave a single test, and I think I got it right, every time.

There's bound to be some confirmation bias there

Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by ChrisMarshallNY on Monday October 28, 2019 @11:43AM (#21377942)
Yes.

I confirm that everyone that worked on my team worked out well. Some had more challenges than others, but we got the job done. The team worked well together, and we worked with our overseas compatriots in exemplary fashion.

I was very fortunate. It was a small, high-functioning, C++ team of experienced engineers. All family people, with decades of programming experience.

I'm quite aware that this was a luxury. I'm grateful for that.

Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by saghm on Monday October 28, 2019 @12:49PM (#21378676)
> All family people, with decades of programming experience

I might be reading into this wrong, but it almost sounds like you're saying that you only hired people who had families. Doesn't that sound a little bit discriminatory?

Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by twobat on Monday October 28, 2019 @01:34PM (#21379324)
You cannot hire by not discriminating. It's by default a task that discriminates.
Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by JoeAltmaier on Monday October 28, 2019 @01:37PM (#21379361)
Sophistry. "Discrimination' is well-understood to mean 'decide with bias regarding protected categories'.
[dead]
Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by saghm on Monday October 28, 2019 @01:21PM (#21379161)
Could you clarify what the intended reading is, then?
Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by ChrisMarshallNY on Monday October 28, 2019 @02:35PM (#21380056)
At my company, HR was run by the General Counsel. It was NOT a "warm fuzzy" HR, but it WAS an extremely "legal-correct" HR.

I would have been fired if I had shown any bias at all. I had my differences with some folks there, and I wasn't always thrilled with the way that things were run, but it was the most diverse environment I've ever seen; and I include a lot of Silicon Valley companies in that statement.

The simple fact of the matter was, that the jobs in my team required a fairly advanced knowledge of C++, and the lions' share of applicants were men in their 30s; usually married.

Marital status, gender, race, religious or sexual orientation/gender identification mean absolutely nothing to me; unless the applicant insists that it should. In that case, I generally find that they might not work so well in the team.

Lack of drama was important to me. We had a full plate.

Re:Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing by ChrisMarshallNY on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:16PM (#21381148)
I should also add that managing a team that has several senior, married people is NOT the same as managing a team of young, unmarried folks.

An almost guaranteed way to lose people with families, is to insist that they must ignore their family to work the job.

This means that things like offsites and travel need to take into account things like school schedules, childcare and time off. I would often let people travel on Sunday to Japan, taking the heat for them not being there for a Monday meeting (which usually was just a "set the agenda" meeting anyway). That was my job.

It doesn't mean that someone going through a divorce, or caring for a sick family member, can take a ton of time off when a project is melting down, but it does mean that I would work with them, to ensure that their families get cared for, and that they can leave the job where it belongs, so that they are 100% for their families.

If you do things like this, you end up with a team that will take a bullet for you, and will do things like travel to Japan for two weeks to work on an emergency integration.

It's absolutely shocking how many managers don't get that.