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Re:Economics Needs a Post-Crash Revolution by mdorazio on Sunday October 27, 2019 @11:00AM (#21370120)
Generally yes, but you've ignored another possibility: lower cost of living such that 17.3k per annum is plenty of money to live on. This is the positive promise of automation - technology advancements could, in theory, push marginal costs for most goods toward zero over time. If these cost savings are passed on to consumers, cost of living should drop accordingly as well. This has only somewhat happened to date because the big winners of productivity increases have been the wealthy/owners of capital.

The problem, of course, is when we talk about things that cannot be produced, like land.

Re:Economics Needs a Post-Crash Revolution by scythe on Sunday October 27, 2019 @12:08PM (#21370584)
>but you've ignored another possibility: lower cost of living such that 17.3k per annum is plenty of money to live on.

No, that's also growth. A lower "cost" of living requires some reconfiguration of "stuff" in the world so that it provides more utility, i.e., more "value", than it does currently, which we understand to be an increase because it is not currently providing that amount of utility -- i.e., providing for living. That would mean that the total amount of "value" has grown, even if we refer to it using smaller amounts of currency.

I think some people interpret "growth" to mean growth in physical things, like energy consumption or the amount of railroads, but growth also includes psychological variables like satisfaction and physiological variables like health. The world absolutely needs growth. You can't get around that by rewording the question.

Re:Economics Needs a Post-Crash Revolution by mdorazio on Sunday October 27, 2019 @03:39PM (#21371879)
Ok, I thought we were talking about economics and thus economic growth. If you want to get into intangible things like general well-being then it's a different discussion entirely.
Re:Economics Needs a Post-Crash Revolution by duxut_staglatz on Sunday October 27, 2019 @11:56AM (#21370521)
In your automation story, is there the same amount of goods that produced right now (but with less labor) or more goods?
Re:Economics Needs a Post-Crash Revolution by mdorazio on Sunday October 27, 2019 @03:37PM (#21371872)
Same goods, less labor. Growth in goods output is not required.
Re:Economics Needs a Post-Crash Revolution by duxut_staglatz on Sunday October 27, 2019 @06:42PM (#21372931)
Which goes back to scythe's point: is USD 17k (with US prices) enough to live on, even if we do not have to work? If yes, we do not need growth; if it would be better to have more, then we need growth.