News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by lozenge on Sunday October 27, 2019 @06:42AM (#21368917)
I believe the environmental laws are that the EPA makes specific rules and companies have to follow them. This reduces uncertainty for businesses over what is an acceptable level or form of pollution.

In Bush Jr years, the EPA had to be taken to court to even accept that CO2 and other greenhouse gases are pollutants, meaning they have to be regulated.

The only other law I can think of would be reckless endangerment, hopefully somebody here can explain why it wouldn't apply.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everyt...

Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by cartoonworld on Sunday October 27, 2019 @11:53AM (#21370496)
In my experience there is quite a bit of confusion about the terminology of pollutant, emissions, and greenhouse gasses in the general public. Emissions and Pollutant are words than usually don't include CO2 in their regulatory or industry definitions.

There are many Hondas out there running around with chrome plastic ULEV labels riveted to the car. ULEV is Ultra-Low Emissions Vehicle, and in this circumstance "Emissions" refers to NMOG or "Non-Methane Organic Gas" which does not include CO2. I have anecdotally encountered many people who assume ULEV means "Doesn't Pollute As Much", and that is true.

In my state, when you get a smog-check or emissions inspection, the gasses the state measures to issue the sticker are known as "Emission Gasses" in the regulatory literature used in the state DOT approved inspection technician licensing training. CO2 (along with oxygen) is classified as a "Diagnostic Gas" and is not considered for this purpose as a tailpipe emission.

Many customers of the DOT inspections wrongly assume the emissions reduce CO2 or "Global Warming" when its really just reducing smog, cancer, asthma, acid rain, etc

Of course the tested emissions gasses such as oxides of nitrogen are quite harmful, and anyone affected by them will be unhappy, no effort at all has been expended to educate the public wrt CO2.

Most people assume their cars cause less "Bad Stuff" from the tailpipe laws and ULEV standards and catalytic converters and advanced chemicals. Their idea of that Bad Stuff usually includes CO2, but this is not the case. Hydrocarbons neccesarilly oxidize into CO2, H20, and other byproducts.

Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by lisptw102019 on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:48AM (#21376052)
My understanding is that this is also a big part of the difference in emission standards between the US and EU. i.e. In the past we have been a lot more strict about things like NOX and other countries have been stronger about things like CO2. At least as far as diesels went, anyway.
Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by cartoonworld on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:29PM (#21383538)
Yeah I've thought of that too.

My memory certainly doesn't stretch back to the 1970's introduction of EGR Valves, but the rage that acid rain, ozone, smog caused back then got us into really good shape in a lot of ways regarding NOX. 60s and 70s Americans still have ulcer inducing rage about the diesel stink and headaches anytime they get near 'em.

In Europe, if I am not mistaken, the tax paid on displacement is in part due to the shorthand way of attributing more displacement=more co2, plus the heavy fuel tax. The result is that the euros put-put along behind some very, very efficient power plants, while in the USA the marketing had everyone demanding v6 gasoline minivans and dumpy pickup trucks.

Lot of people just get off on burning the stuff too, they like the fuel smell from the tailpipe.

By the mid 1990's, while every garage monkey was bitching about having to use a computer to fix the cars, vehicles finally started to actually get good.

But what blew my mind a little bit was learning about the Plymouth Scamp (Dodge Rampage) https://www.allpar.com/omni/rampage/scamp-rampage.html

These babies have about the power of a Mercedes-Benz inline5 240D but gas, mind blowing post-fuel rationing MPG and with a truck bed! Probably way better from a stop than the nowadays-too-dangerous-to-drive Mercedes 240D too, I couldn't say having never driven a Scamp. The oldest and easily most skilled mechanic I've ever known had a Scamp as his main daily driver until it finally rusted away less than a decade ago, and he sure loved it.

Sorry to pointlessly ramble, love this subject.

Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by nroets on Sunday October 27, 2019 @08:34AM (#21369320)
I'm not a US citizen and I'm not a lawyer. But it I'm really worried that the US public will blame Exxon for climate change. If Exxon disappeared overnight, the current regulatory environment means that another oil company will take up the slack in decade or two.

It's time for the US to realize they are much richer than most other countries. They should show the world they are willing to make real sacrifices. Otherwise we will see the tragedy of the commons play out on a global scale.

Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by ageofwant on Sunday October 27, 2019 @08:48AM (#21369386)
There are no sacrifice necessary, that's a silly meme that refuses to die. Its the same kind of thinking that made people ask where they are going to keep all the horses if cities become to large back in the day.

We have modern nuclear technology today, we should just elect to use it.

Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by paulryanrogers on Sunday October 27, 2019 @10:47AM (#21370016)
Even if thorium reactors could be built right now and use waste from older reactors, there is still the process of mining and handling radioactive material.

Nuclear may be preferable to coal but (IMO) not to large scale development of solar, wind, and higher efficiency grids.

Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by jakeogh on Friday November 01, 2019 @04:58AM (#21417156)
We only need to mine 1/1e6'th of it compared to conventional chemistry. Thorium is a waste product, we mine it anyway, it's with the Lanthanides. It's an alpha emitter so unless you ingest it (serious hazard, dont ingest alpha emitters) it's not difficult to work with.
Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by nroets on Sunday October 27, 2019 @10:48AM (#21370026)
Even if nuclear technology provides all US electricity within "5-7 years", gasoline will still be needed to power the majority of US vehicles and aircraft.

It will be hard for Americans to stay at home some vacations, to build denser cities, drive smaller vehicles and eat less meat. Those are sacrifices that will not hurt the economy !!

Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by lozenge on Sunday October 27, 2019 @09:29AM (#21369551)
"limiting warming below or close to 1.5 °C would require to decrease net emissions by around 45% by 2030 and reach net zero by 2050"

How long would it take to build out nuclear "with no sacrifice necessary"?

Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by sampo on Sunday October 27, 2019 @11:31AM (#21370319)
> How long would it take to build out nuclear "with no sacrifice necessary"?

Less time than it will take to finish this lawsuit.

In the 1970s, Sweden built reactors in 5-7 years. In current decade, China has built reactors in 5-7 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Sweden#List_o...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors#China

Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by beerandt on Sunday October 27, 2019 @03:08PM (#21371728)
Except for the delay that they'll have to fight potentially frivolous lawsuits...
Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by EGreg on Sunday October 27, 2019 @10:31AM (#21369906)
5-7 years
Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by donatj on Sunday October 27, 2019 @08:07AM (#21369207)
I really don’t follow the logic here. Wouldn’t denying the global supply chain the fuel it needs to provide food and goods be more reckless than not?

If we just stopped using oil millions if not billions of people would die from malnutrition in a far shorter timeframe than global warming is going to cause.

Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by 23throwaway23 on Sunday October 27, 2019 @08:36AM (#21369332)
Heroin dealers are a great analogy here. Yea, if you cut off the supply to an addict they go through a process of withdrawal. And these companies have been working hard to manufacture demand and get more addicts.

The world did fine without tonnes of plastics for quite a bit of time. Yea, it would require rethinking industrial civilization (unclear it would survive), but we need to stop weaning ourselves off this toxic asset ASAP and as quickly as possible.

In contrast, the oil and gas companies are going to spend $5 TRILLION over the next 10 years to develop NEW oil and gas reserves, and expect to grow their markets, sales and obviously, emissions.

Re:Massachusetts Sues Exxon over Climate Change, Accusing th... by beerandt on Sunday October 27, 2019 @03:10PM (#21371738)
Heroin addicts can live without heroin.

A bit tougher for people to live without food.