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Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by mschuetz on Saturday October 26, 2019 @02:42PM (#21365426)
I do research in computer science and in the last few years, lots of trivial and dumb patents in my field appeared out of nowhere. However, I can only assume that they really are trivial because they are written in a way to claim a lot without actually describing how any of it works. These patents have 0% information in them. What's more, they all read like a rewrite of papers that were published years ago (before the date filed) into lawyer speak with no amount of information. I have no idea how any of these were ever granted since there is prior art all over the place.

Edit: Okay to be fair, there is maybe not 0% but 10% information in these patents, but it's encoded into unintelligible lawyer/patent talk that is not at all fit to convey technical information. They are written in a way to get a monoply on results without disclosing how these results are obtained.

Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by ImprovedSilence on Saturday October 26, 2019 @07:12PM (#21366874)
The patents are written with the most broad and generic claims as possible first. Then the claims are re stated like 3 or 4 times, that would seem identical, but each re statement of them adds like one or two words of detail or specifics each time down. (So maybe claim 2 won’t stand up in court, but claim 23, a derivative of 2, will, the idea that you sue for infringement of as much as possible) I’ve submitted a patent before, and hardly Understood my own patent by the time the lawyer was done with it. But after really paying attention, I guess all the technical details are there. I think larger companies that aren’t specifically patent trolls patent as much as possible just for their own defense too.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by nitwit005 on Saturday October 26, 2019 @09:06PM (#21367311)
I read the patents that teammates filed. The lawyers were supposed to talk to the engineer to get the idea before filing, but I got the impression that process didn't always work, and they wrote something nonsensical.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by jchw on Saturday October 26, 2019 @04:21PM (#21365950)
I suspect the real big driving motivation is actually just to make sure the patent isn’t too narrow. If you are sinking time and money into patenting everything, it makes business sense to make it as broad as you think you can.

On the flip side, patents exist probably in part exactly because trade secrets are incredibly hard to keep. People are pretty good at reverse engineering things.

(Note: I am not trying to convey an opinion about patents with any of this conjecture, but if you want mine, I think software patents are fully bunk and other patents should not last nearly as long as they do.)

Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by levythe on Saturday October 26, 2019 @04:32PM (#21366002)
It's typically considered the best approach to cast a broad net, then narrow down until a patent is granted. That being said, in the US, patents are given on a first to invent basis, so if you are awarded a patent that is overly vague, it's pretty likely it won't hold up if challenged. I find myself questioning the value of a patent office that awards patents that are vague enough that they wouldn't hold up in a dispute.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by jacques_chester on Saturday October 26, 2019 @05:21PM (#21366305)
In my understanding the US is now on a first-to-file system.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by cma on Saturday October 26, 2019 @06:56PM (#21366791)
Yes, but a publication or public disclosure that happened before has precedence over a filing.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by mehrdadn on Saturday October 26, 2019 @06:28PM (#21366651)
Apparently it's first inventor to file, though I'm not entirely clear on what that means.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by tzs on Sunday October 27, 2019 @01:14AM (#21367991)
The main difference between the USA's "first inventor to file" and the "first to file" systems in most of the rest of the world is how disclosing the invention publicly by printed publication, use, or sale before you apply for a patent affects patent eligibility.

In the "first to file" systems, you lose eligibility. In the "first inventor to file" system of the US, you have a grace period of one year from such disclosure before you lose eligibility, just like you did under the prior "first to invent" system.

To a decent first approximation, the change to the US system mostly just affects how things are handled if independent inventors try to patent the same thing.

Under the "first to invent" system, the patent went to whichever applicant invented the thing first. But when is something invented? When you first think of the idea? Or when you have reduced the idea to practice? Or sometime in between?

Under the US first to invent system, it was when you conceived the invention if you then worked diligently from that point to reduction to practice. If you stop so working and resume, your lose the prior invention date and your new invention date is when you resumed working diligently on reduction to practice.

When two or more inventors were claiming the same invention determining who was actually first under those rules could be difficult and messy, requiring hearings, and costing the inventors money for attorneys. Now with first inventor to file, we pretty much don't care who thought of it first--we just care which person who independently thought of it reduced it to practice and submitted their patent application first. That's a lot simpler, and requires no expensive hearings.

Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by mehrdadn on Sunday October 27, 2019 @01:18AM (#21367999)
Thank you! That's a super clear explanation and explains what's going on.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by paul7986 on Saturday October 26, 2019 @11:49PM (#21367779)
Or the first person who has the money to file even if he or she only saw some kids invention on YouTube and got to the patent office first.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by tzs on Sunday October 27, 2019 @01:16AM (#21367997)
They would not be an inventor, and would not be eligible for a patent in the US or in most other jurisdictions.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by kurthr on Saturday October 26, 2019 @05:13PM (#21366241)
If the specification is not enabling and novel to one skilled in the art (much less obvious), then it is not valid. Under rexam or court proceedings they will be worth the paper they're printed on. That's an expensive way to determine things, but it sounds like that particular section of art at the patent office isn't doing much. On the other hand they only have to hide one novel idea and unique claim in the list to have a right to enforce.

I do think the EFF's concern about claims and documentation already debunked/invalid being hidden behind seal is pretty serious and I think judges approving it are doing the public no service.

Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by excessive on Saturday October 26, 2019 @05:37PM (#21366389)
When you go to court, the presumption is that the patent is valid. The judge is unlikely to be technical, and he must assume the experts at the patent office did their job. Since the patent office basically rubber stamps anything you send to them, it's a very uphill battle to start with.

In my case, we submitted lots of prior art (some over 100 years old) to the court, and of course they shared this with the plaintiffs. I was certain we should be in the clear. However, in the time between receiving those documents and the actual court date, the plaintiffs submitted our list of prior art to the patent office as some sort of addendum. The patent office re-rubber stamped the new stack of paper, and the judge disregarded it during the trial. We lost. I doubt the patent office bothered to read, much less understand, any of it.

I feel very strongly that their patent was not novel, and since I wrote the algorithm which got us sued from scratch as a new college grad with only a bachelors degree, I doubt it was non-obvious to one skilled in the art. Maybe we could've won with better lawyers, but as a small startup, we didn't have that kind of money.

Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by pbhjpbhj on Saturday October 26, 2019 @06:02PM (#21366526)
It sounds like you didn't have very good counsel if the court didn't consider clear prior disclosure as demonstrating invalidity.

FWIW in the UK we have expert patent court judges; USA used to have that too, I gather.

>I doubt it was non-obvious to one skilled in the art //

You have to be careful here, "obvious" doesn't quite mean the same as in daily life. It's so easy to see a neat solution to a problem and go "that's so simple, anyone could have done it". Once you've seen things they often seem simple (ex post facto analysis).

I think this is particularly true in some arts where basically every day any ordinary worker invents solutions to problems.

Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by excessive on Saturday October 26, 2019 @06:31PM (#21366668)
The plaintiffs certainly had a larger legal team. We brought our patent attorney and a trial lawyer on our own dime, and we managed to get some time from the chief patent counsel for a very large company because he had a relationship with one of our investors.

The plaintiffs managed to get jurisdiction in their own city (across the country from ours), and the general belief was that the judge granted this because he wanted a change from the drug trials he normally dealt with. This made it very expensive for us, and they definitely had the home court advantage.

I could whine about a lot of other things. For instance the plaintiffs removed every juror candidate who had any college, leaving only locals who I don't think even understood trigonometry. The fact that you're not supposed to be able to patent math, but somehow math on a computer gets through the patent process, etc...

> ex post facto analysis

I'm not sure what definition of "obvious" survives then. I was out of college for less than 2 months, and I wrote the code in a single evening. The "infringing" algorithm was less than 10 lines.

Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by stupidpatents99 on Sunday October 27, 2019 @12:49AM (#21367930)
This very recent case was similar: https://www.eagleview.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Order-g...

The jury found that the plaintiffs patents for measuring roofs on aerial imagery were valid, even though every photogrammetrist in the world would say otherwise. Hopefully they'll appeal and have better council...

Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by everybodyknows on Saturday October 26, 2019 @07:23PM (#21366940)
> The patent office re-rubber stamped the new stack of paper, and the judge disregarded it during the trial.

Not sure I understand this -- are you saying the judge took the PO rubber-stamp as proof that though the prior art might be related, it was not disqualifying?

Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by analog31 on Saturday October 26, 2019 @09:43PM (#21367411)
Indeed, a granted patent includes a list of citations, and the presumption is that the office has found that the cited works are not disqualifying prior art. A published patent is assumed to not be self-disqualifying.

I'm not a patent lawyer, but I've been involved in this stuff, often conducting extensive prior art searches. The gold standard for prior art is a single document that teaches everything in the claims of the patent. Often, folks think that they've found prior art if they find one thing in one document and another thing elsewhere. Nope.

Now if you happen to find the pieces of a claim in different prior documents, then you may be able to demonstrate obviousness rather than prior art. For instance it's generally considered obvious to take two patented ideas and combine them together. But obviousness is profoundly harder to prove than straightforward prior art.

Meanwhile, anything that's taught in the body of the patent, can be added to the claims at a later date. Within some limitations of course. A patent can be invalidated in its entirety, and the holder can submit a completely new claim set based on the original body text.

Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by excessive on Saturday October 26, 2019 @10:14PM (#21367494)
Thank you for your reply, it does actually change how I see the prior art thing played out.

> Often, folks think that they've found prior art if they find one thing in one document and another thing elsewhere. Nope.

Still, I think there must be something profoundly broken if you find the exact math in an old book, and the new patent basically says, "do that math on a computer".

Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by analog31 on Saturday October 26, 2019 @11:22PM (#21367709)
I'd be inclined to agree with you. In fact, as I understand it there are new rules that specifically address so called "with a computer" patents. You weren't supposed to be able to patent a math formula, so instead, people would patent a machine that carries out a math formula.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by amelius on Sunday October 27, 2019 @06:09AM (#21368812)
I'm more surprised that the judge didn't look at the revision date of the paper, or that your lawyer didn't point out that the patent was modified.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by excessive on Saturday October 26, 2019 @08:05PM (#21367111)
Yes, exactly.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by anoncake on Sunday October 27, 2019 @07:39AM (#21369127)
> The judge is unlikely to be technical, and he must assume the experts at the patent office did their job.

If the executive branch always did its job correctly we'd hardly need courts.

Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by zachguo on Saturday October 26, 2019 @04:49PM (#21366087)
Also people in tech companies get bonus if they file patents.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by CalChris on Saturday October 26, 2019 @04:52PM (#21366101)
Can you cite one of these patents? That way we can see what you mean by 10%, gauge the quality of the patent, and look at its history.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by Railsify on Saturday October 26, 2019 @04:43PM (#21366055)
There has been a surge in stupid patents because Obama changed the rules to allow patents to be granted to the first person to file for patent, even if the device of process has been in use for 100 years.
Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by pbhjpbhj on Saturday October 26, 2019 @06:08PM (#21366554)
Patents are only valid if they relate to new and inventive stuff.

USA came in to line with the rest of the World which uses first-to-file (first to invent means the litigious will always challenge inventorship which is exceedingly difficult to determine as there isn't necessarily a paper-trail).

USA patent seem, to me, to be worse than other places, and first to file works elsewhere suggesting that is not the problem.

Personally I feel the costs system, and low presumption of validity at grant seem more to blame.

Re:Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them... by anticensor on Saturday October 26, 2019 @06:31PM (#21366667)
First to file vs first to invent only matters if if there are two near-simultaneous independent patent applications on same subject by different parties.

Patents are not like registered marks where you can apply for the same thing over and over; only the original inventor or its employer can apply, otherwise lour patent would be invalidated due to prior art.