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Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by gregmac on Saturday October 26, 2019 @11:21AM (#21364179)
Once you've hired a hitman, the outcome is basically out of your control. Is there an argument where someone had hired a hitman with the intent they're unsuccessful? That seems far fetched to me.

I can buy your argument if they had intended to commit the murder themselves, because they can change their mind at any point up to actually doing it.

Similar situations to the hitman exist, too: planting a bomb, poisoning food, etc. Just because they're a bad bomb maker, or the poison wasn't potent enough, or the target doesn't drive/eat the food/etc doesn't change that they clearly intended to kill someone. To be clear, I draw a distinct line between possessing a bomb and actually planting it in someone's car - the former might be still be a crime but is clearly not the same severity as actually killing someone, whereas the actions the perpetrator took in the latter are indistinguishable, regardless of outcome.

Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by stickfigure on Saturday October 26, 2019 @11:54AM (#21364395)
Most legal systems seem to apply some variation of the "no harm, no foul" rule. Or at least "less foul". It also applies if you shoot and miss, or the bomb goes off at the wrong time, or if you get lost on the way to the assassination.

It seems to make sense? I mean, it's not like someone is getting off scott free. But at least there isn't a body, and that should count for something. Attempted murder is overall less bad than actual murder.

Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by nitrogen on Saturday October 26, 2019 @12:04PM (#21364460)
Maybe this makes sense if you think of the punishment as having a deterrent component and a retributive component. Someone who attempts a crime but fails needs to be deterred from future crime, but does not owe the same magnitude of retributive debt to society.

I'll note that despite the above I'd probably prefer a justice system that focuses on deterrence and rehabilitation, and omits retribution.

Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by Jeff_Brown on Saturday October 26, 2019 @12:48PM (#21364717)
+1. There's no material societal benefit in retribution. (True, it makes some people feel good, but so does burning a cross in someone's yard.) The purpose of a justice system is to keep us safe. Someone who hires a hitman should be punished, so that future people don't do it. Whether they succeed is irrelevant.

A counterargument I can imagine is that if we punish the unsuccessful hiring of a hitman more lightly, then future hirers are more likely to err on the side of a hitman with a lower probability of success. But that seems improbable to me -- one doesn't hire a hitman to see them fail.

Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by oefrha on Saturday October 26, 2019 @01:08PM (#21364851)
> The purpose of a justice system is to keep us safe. Someone who hires a hitman should be punished, so that future people don't do it. Whether they succeed is irrelevant.

One small step further: someone who plans to hire a hitman should be punished, so that future people don't even think about it. Whether they manage to hire one is irrelevant.

Now you're punishing a thought crime and equating that with successful murder even.

Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by Jeff_Brown on Saturday October 26, 2019 @02:31PM (#21365366)
Merely thinking about hiring a hitman is bad, yes, and should be punished, yes.

But I would not equate it with hiring one. That's because the expected damage from planning to hire a hitman is smaller than that from actually hiring one. A year of punishment hurts the criminal the same regardless of which of those two scenarios holds, but the social benefit of punishing them is less. Therefore we should punish them less. (Unless we don't care about the welfare of someone who's been convicted at all. I think that's a sick position to hold -- even setting aside the possibility of false positives -- but it has its adherents.)

A real eye-opener for me regarding these questions of weighing the costs and benefits (i.e. the economics) of punishment was Thomas Friedman's book Law's Order. Until I read that, I thought the whole question was just a political fight. And while it certainly is a political fight, there's a much more objective kind of analysis available -- in fact, it's the norm in economics.

Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by Stronico on Saturday October 26, 2019 @10:42PM (#21367588)
David D. Friedman actually, Thomas Friedman is the columnist for the New York Times. His newest book is awesome by the way.
Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by Jeff_Brown on Saturday October 26, 2019 @10:52PM (#21367616)
Ooh. You're referring to Legal Systems Very Different From Ours[1]? That does look fascinating.

And thanks for the correction.

[1]http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Legal%20Systems/LegalSystemsCo...

Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by Stronico on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @04:36PM (#21456967)
It is very, very good.
Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by vharuck on Saturday October 26, 2019 @02:15PM (#21365275)
We call it a sting operation, not a thought crime.
Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by dragonwriter on Saturday October 26, 2019 @02:48PM (#21365466)
> Maybe this makes sense if you think of the punishment as having a deterrent component and a retributive component.

It also makes sense if one rejects retribution as illegimate but accepts proportionality as a basis for limiting on punishment. (Many doctrines of criminal punishment accept both retribution as a goal and proportionality as a limit, so...)

Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by dodobirdlord on Saturday October 26, 2019 @06:35PM (#21366692)
Proportionality on outcome or proportionality on intent? If the assassin's gun misfires nobody is harmed. A punishment proportional to the outcome would be no punishment at all. But a punishment proportional to intent should not distinguish between the scenarios where the gun does and does not misfire.
Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by gist on Saturday October 26, 2019 @11:48AM (#21364364)
> Once you've hired a hitman, the outcome is basically out of your control.

And what happens if you hire a hitman and by accident he kills 20 people instead of 1 person? [1]

[1] Say some poison or even he just goes berzerk with the gun or weapon.

Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by glofish on Saturday October 26, 2019 @01:18PM (#21364918)
Imagine you hire someone to mow your lawn, they accidentally destroy the neighbors' lawn, run over their dog, then set their house on fire. Also, they were drunk and on the way home from the job drove into a crowd of people. Should you be responsible?
Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by QuinnWilton on Saturday October 26, 2019 @09:43PM (#21367413)
These aren't comparable examples. If you hire a hitman, there's a reasonable expectation that people will die. No such expectation exists for hiring someone to mow your lawn.
Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by glofish on Sunday October 27, 2019 @09:02PM (#21373536)
This is about intent and responsibility.

Under what circumstances is one responsible for someone else's acts. Just because you hire someone to do something illegal, you are not responsible for all the illegal acts the other person might commit.

The mere fact of putting something in motion does not immediately mean one is responsible for all the outcomes of all actions in the chain.

Re:Hitman hires hitman who hires hitman who hires hitman who... by gruez on Saturday October 26, 2019 @11:52PM (#21367783)
There's a reasonable expectation that the victim will die, but not anyone else. I guess you can argue that there might be a risk of collateral damage, but there's also a risk of collateral damage in hiring contractors for your house (eg. the plumber starting a gas leak resulting you and your neighbor's house getting blown up).