I think when you experience prejudice regarding your race, it’s unfair to characterize that as “stewing”.

Maybe you don’t find this article or his initial piece insightful; that’s fair enough.

But I also think it’s fair of him to shine a light on unfair treatment in the place he lives, without people suggesting - without irony - that he “go home”.

If you spend extensive time reflecting on an injustice you can’t do anything about and that isn’t going to change that is absolutely “stewing”. I know someone who is still bitter at someone years dead and brings them up to bash them regularly. They were wronged and they’re stewing.

The article’s plenty insightful, it provides a wonderful insight into what it’s like to be the author, and secondarily, an aspect of being a foreigner in Japan that obviously really disturbs some.

There’s no need for quotation marks on home in your last paragraph. Mr. McNeil is not attempting to be Japanese. He’s professionally American in Japan. He writes for English language publications, campaigns for American cultural attitudes and despite living in Japan for 15 years and being a writer his Wikipedia page is only in English.

If he’s being treated unfairly there’s no evidence of it in the linked article.

I don't understand the conclusion that just because he wrote a couple of articles about it ten years apart, that he's been constantly stewing on it for that entire time. Maybe it's something that only occurs to him when he's on the train, and even then maybe only sometimes, and maybe - as a writer - he's trained to recognize these transient thoughts and tease them into articles. That's what a lot of these slice-of-life articles are, focusing on moments that would otherwise slip by and escape notice.

In the words of the late Donald Richie: "I would leave Japan if I were Japanese."

But there are endless perspectives on this issue and quite a few have their merits, despite contradicting each other.

FWIW I live in Japan and I get uneasy around foreigners. And I'd be especially uneasy around folks from my home country!

> experience prejudice regarding your race

I think it might be more about culture than race. Race is a good proxy for "not Japanese". While Japan is not 100% ethnically uniform, if someone doesn't look Japanese they are most likely not Japanese.

When I see a foreigner I don't know if they've been in Japan long enough to share the same values, respect the culture, and the rules. Can I trust them the same way I trust the Japanese? Japanese have earned my trust over time. And spending time in Japan has changed me.

But a foreigner?! I don't know where are they from. I don't know what their country is like and I don't know what they are they like.

Japan is probably the safest place in the world (maybe Singapore can compete? But it's so tiny it's not fair competition). The rest of the world feels like a jungle. Full of wonder, yes, but also full of unknown dangers :)

Somewhat ironically, Singapore is one of the most racially and ethnically diverse places in the world, demonstrating that ethnic non-uniformity shouldn't be a proxy for unknown dangers.

Everything can easily be done in a tiny controlled environment! Also Singapore is fairly uniform. There's Malaysian Singaporean part, Indian part and Chinese part. They do not overlap. Everyone stays in their lane!

I don’t disagree that neighborhoods are fairly delineated, but in the context of this article, everyone rides the same MRT lines. They all sit next to each other too!

  if someone doesn't look Japanese they are most likely not Japanese

Like the Ainu?

> Official estimates place the total Ainu population at 25,000, but unofficial estimates place its total population at 200,000

Meanwhile there are 10M people living in Tokyo. If all Ainu people of Japan lived in Tokyo, how likely would it be for me to meet one?

Also, there were 30M visitors to Japan last year.

So if one doesn't know and one is making a guess, what is more likely? Foreign visitor or a member of a tiny local minority?

It's more complicated than that though, because:

1. he may not be in a position of being able to leave easily after this long--a random example could be a significant other who does not speak English well.

2. the attitude this comment takes (and I've been living in Seoul for the last four years so I've spent a while thinking about this[1]) is absolutely unacceptable to most people if placed in a western context. Different race? He's a guest in their country!

What is it about East Asia that makes this attitude so tempting? is a question that doesn't let go once it gets its hooks into you. The ethnic homogeneity of Japan/Korea and to a lesser extent China must be a part of it. Race and the assumed privilege (privilege to leave, etc) of being a westerner also factors in.For example, things would be murkier if the author of the article were a labourer from SE Asia. But I haven't fully worked it out yet and maybe never will.

[1] Koreans don't do the empty seat thing when the train/bus is crowded. I'll also note that I've been an enthusiastic proponent of "if you don't like it leave" at various times, depending on the situation, and am not pretending to have all the answers.

There may be some cases where it's more complicated, but this isn't one of them.

Japan is the country of the Japanese, and they have no obligation to even let this guy live in his country, much less put up with his whining.

On the contrary, I believe that ethnonationalism is ethnonationalism no matter where you go, as are xenophobic attitudes. The difference lies in what outcomes these worldviews produce in the world. I'm happy to let this interaction end on that note, thanks.

The East Asian ABCC11 allele results in less spontaneous body odor, but exactly because of that many people of East Asian descent, particularly those in East Asia, bathe less often than Americans.

You know who also enjoy reduced apocrine secretions? Old people. But there's a definite musk to old people, very much like the musk of a bunch of younger non-sweaty people on their second or third day (or longer) since showering.

But I wouldn't not sit next to somebody because of that; certainly not in the expectation that I might smell something. (Although certainly I've wished I hadn't sat somewhere because of this.) I find it difficult to believe that even the Japanese would do this, even for a black foreigner[1]. More likely their aversion is more general and non-specific. It takes effort to be that racist, considering the circumstance (crowded train) and prevalence (everybody for years, so like thousands of people; and an experience shared with many other American expats).

Anyhow, being "racist" isn't like some mark of Cain. As you imply, we're all racially prejudiced and all have shared experiences of being prejudiced, which is why I feel I can confidently make some assumptions and draw some inferences despite not being Japanese or having lived in Japan. And the author is pretty clear that he's in a state of perpetually "making peace" with the situation, which is basically a way of saying that though he holds some very strongly held beliefs about the way people should behave, and some visceral feelings about the way he's treated, he's nonetheless aware of the reality of the situation, that these people aren't trying to be mean, and that he recognizes an unresolved moral quandary by judging them and their culture.

[1] I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that most blacks in Japan are American, not from Africa, and therefore much more likely to be daily bathers who use deodorant. Which means it's very unlikely he actually has a strong odor, and far more likely people assume he might based on a stereotype, to the extent they're assuming anything specific at all.

He’s black. Did you read that part?

Honest question, Are Japanese any more likely to be racist against black people than white people? Or a Chinese person?

Usually racism (the hatred variety at least) comes from a degree of familiarity. You won't find a lot of KKK members in Scandinavia and you won't find much antisemitism in areas with no jews.

American race relations are not universally applicable.

Edit - added negation operator.

Hollywood has unfortunately exported American-style black animus to the world, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if Japanese are more racist toward blacks than whites, especially American blacks. Also, the whole light-skin, dark-skin thing was never unique to Europeans. But relative to their general prejudice against foreigners any heightened prejudice might not be very discernible.

Dunno about more or less but when I was in Japan I saw Japanese people get up and move, not just to a different seat, but to a whole different part of the train carriage, when a couple of white Westerners sat next to them.

Also I'm guessing you're missing a 'not' in the last line there?

How does that affect the situation? Is it objectionable for a Japanese person to avoid a seat next to a black person but not a white person?

Of course, I commented on his picture and it would be pretty hard to notice his width and not his race. I don't see why this is pertinent, though, he's not Japanese and I was commenting on the fact that he's not Japanese, not on what race he was.

Width? Don’t make me laugh. It’s racism. Call it what it is. So we can pause, to allow improvement and to better uphold the idea that people are equal.

This kind of avoidance and apologizing of racism are what plant the seeds of xenophobic ideologies.

So? Is the black race so tortured that blacks must feel extra disturbed when subjected to some sort of racism wherever they are in the world?

Racism isn’t something you should always take personally. It is possible to harbor racist feelings toward a race while still making an exception for individuals you get to know on a personal basis.

When I’m in Japan, I know people will take one look at me and think I’m a filthy gaijin. Fair enough, I don’t blame them as they live in a very homogeneous country and outsiders are rare. It is the price I pay for being in their country, and I won’t try to change that, I’ll just try to do my thing and stay out of the way. I don’t want any trouble.

Wow. This is a truly horrifying attempt to normalize racism. "If you don't like it, just go home." He's been there for a decade. The author likely sees Japan as his home.

The social mechanics of Japan are certainly quirky by western standards, but that doesn't mean that some things aren't universally unacceptable. You might as well say, "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women should be able to drive, stay out of Saudi Arabia." (recently changed)

As a traveler, and someone that's been to almost 50 countries, I tend to keep my head down and not make waves when I'm out of my the cultures where I feel at home. But that doesn't mean that I can't write about injustices. That's what you're literally saying the author is not entitled to do. After a decade in said country.

> "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women should be able to drive, stay out of Saudi Arabia." (recently changed)

I mean... yes? I cannot recommend living in either country as a member of one of those groups. Nor can I really understand the egocentric view that if you voluntarily choose to move to a new country that country's culture should change as to be comfortable for you.

We should let people that brave it, comment on it without being told they shouldn’t be there by people who aren’t there.

Commenting on it is critical. Commentary can spark a change in ideas and attitudes for the better.

HN crowd always go to the pragmatic.

But what about big ideas? Big change? Can we support people that are pursuing that without zooming immediately into technicalities?

Probably not. But I hope.

It is definitely acceptable to comment on his experience -- and I think it was a fascinating read -- but I'm mostly reacting to the idea that accepting it as a facet of Japanese society is normalizing racism.

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

"But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

If you feel like going on a one man crusade to change the world is what you want to do with your life go for it. If you want admiration for it make sure you win.

Out of curiosity, would you be ok with someone telling a non-us citizen black man in the US "If you don't like people acting racist toward you, go back where you came from"? That is fairly widely considered inappropriate in the US (though not universally).

The US is pretty much the other extreme from homogenous country/society. Regardless of one's answer to your question, you are gonna need to pick a different country name in it to have any kind of comparison to Japan

It's rude to say that to someone, but as a foreigner if you can't come to terms with the face that you ARE an outsider, leaving's your only alternative (America's pretty diverse so eventually anyone can become a local, but in many places the visual difference will always set you apart).

I've been the foreigner before and there's a big gap between not being treated like a local and being actively encouraged to leave.

It’s still racism even if it’s culturally acceptable.

Is that form of racism still bad if it's culturally accepted? There are places in the world where it is not only culturally but legally encoded that non-natives are second class citizens. Should those places be denied the opportunity to self-determine that policy?

This is only one facet of a common problem that virtually every people on earth deals with. Is it so hard to acknowledge?

> There are places in the world where it is not only culturally but legally encoded that non-natives are second class citizens.

Hell, in Israel you can even be a native and be a second class citizen. I wouldn’t look to these countries as role models for human rights, though.

Only if you're treated worse. Which in many places you are not. But you're still not a local.

I think tilting at windmills is a great way to spend precious hours or years of your life to a net negative effect on your life. It may redound to the benefit of other people later but you’ll pay the costs, not them. If that sounds like a good deal to you go for it.

I am personally a big fan of going where I’m wanted and where I feel comfortable rather than trying to change other people.

Out of curiosity, would you be ok with a non-citizen Japanese person lecturing you on why Americans are bad because they don't have the exact same outlook and attitude as Japanese people?

Because that's what the author of this article is doing.

If that outlook is “is it ok to treat this person as a lower class of person”, then you should stand up for your values. Not all cultural relativism must end with blind acceptance.

You're presupposing a lot about the author's situation: maybe he's not in a situation where he can easily leave, or the things he likes about Japan outweigh occasionally being snubbed with an empty seat.

Clearly, he feels like it's just slight background noise in his life, but there's nothing wrong with being little annoyed that he's still being prejudged by the society he's living in after trying to fit in as best he can.

First, having lived in China in different cities and in Japan, the empty seat phenomenon is nowhere as pronounced in China as in Japan. In Japan, you sometimes end up seating next to an empty seat in a packed train, I've rarely seen that in Japan. Yes as foreigners, we are more likely to be seated next to an empty seat in China but once the train is packed, the seat doesn't stay empty.

It's a very different feeling in Japan.

I also rather disagree with the suggestion to get out. Getting out is not always easy and besides that, why should one systematically accept racism? It's ok to complain about it. Doesn't mean that he doesn't find some positive aspects about living in Japan but he has a right to complain about this kind of behavior

Downvoted; the author clearly doesn't have much problem with not be seen as Japanese, he has a problem with being seen as a human being one should not sit next to.

I agree that if the attitudes of people in Japan bother him so much, not clear why he’s staying

Having said that, the phenomenon he describes is pure racism. Not easy to shrug off

I bet I know what will really help "change the things you can". Instead of writing that article about racism for people to read about it and react, and prompt reflection on prejudice in all aspects of life -- you should just shut up and go home. Challenge nothing and no one. Do not stand up for human rights. Object vocally when others do.

> I’m never going to be Chineses, same as he’s never going to be Japanese. If that bugs him why not go home? No one’s making him stay in Japan.

I’m so happy to read this comment. I lived in Japan for 4 years and had the same feeling. People are always upset they’re not seen as Japanese despite the fact they are indeed not Japanese. I could see an argument if you were a child of a western parent, born and raised in Japan with Japanese values constantly having to remind people that you are a Japanese national but these are just foreigners living in Japan with a chip on their shoulder because they weren’t born Japanese.

I hear you, but I also notice how different the expectations and standards are around race in the west. If we transplant some of the things said above into America, I notice I have a very different reaction.

Eg, “[Because he’s not white] he’s never going to be American. If that bugs him, why not go home? Nobody is making him stay in America.”

“[Immigrants] are just foreigners living in America with a chip on their shoulder because they weren’t born American”

(Edit to be really clear I’m not condoning or condemning. Just noticing.)

America actually is unique among countries. I could move to Japan, but I'll never be Japanese; I could also move to Denmark, but I'll never be a Dane. But I moved to America and now I am American.

The vast majority of countries don't work this way, nor would it be better for all of them to. But it's great that at least one does.

> Eg, “[Because he’s not white] he’s never going to be American. If that bugs him, why not go home? Nobody is making him stay in America.”

No, because America is not a racially homogenous society. Japan mostly is. Japan's residents are 98% japanese and most of the other 2% are other asians.

Hm, I’m doing a gut check on that by swapping in another western country which is more racially homogeneous than the US to see how I feel about it:

> “[Because he’s not white] he’s never going to be Norwegian. If that bugs him, why not go home? Nobody is making him stay in Norway.”

My ears still flag that as racist.

Race probably not the issue there, at least not tonthw degree some assume it is. I've seen the very same santiment "you will never be X" from the people which emigrated to the countries where the wast majority is of the same race.

If you happen to be in a visually homogenous society (i.e. rural America, or Japan), you're gonna be treated differently because you stand out.

This common occurrence for American-born children of non-white immigrants in American.

"Where are you from?" "Kansas City" "No, where are you really from?"

This being said, America's had more immigrants come in than Japan, so by collective experience, America should be more open-minded about outsiders than Japan. Which is what we see in big cities like New York.

The same thing is true for anyone in the US though. They always describe themselves as being [insert grandparents’ nationality before coming to the US].

Separate but equal? Or not even equal?

Downvoted; the author clearly doesn't have much problem with not be seen as Japanese, he has a problem with being seen as a human being one should not sit next to.

I see this type of attitude applied to non western countries a lot and I never understood it. It also bothers me a great deal.

I’m ethnically Chinese but have lived in either the US or Canada for most of my life. I’ve been the beneficiary to the changing attitude towards minorities here and have seen how things have changed for the better in my time here.

Imagine if the pervasive attitude has been “You are being discriminated against? So what, life is good here. You are never going to be Canadian / American. If you don’t like it go back to where you came from.”

I’m not a Western Imperialist. I don’t particularly like the way China is run but I’m not under the illusion anyone cares. If you as an American feel like imposing your culture in China by all means go for it but please wait until after I leave.

The opinions of foreigners about a countries internal affairs are relevant insofar as they are backed up by heavy weaponry, except as literary exercises.

No one is talking about imposing anything and certainly not about externally. The article is someone living in japan discussing cultural / racial issues in japan. I’m of the opinion that these things should be raised and discussed instead of just “if you don’t like it go back to where you came from”.

Well they are being discussed by Americans. He reached his intended audience.

Baye McNeil is famous for finding racism where there usually isn't any.

Now you are famous to me for finding absent racism in Baye McNeil. Congrats!

There's always an explanation where the answer is racism, even if it isn't the correct explanation.

Wider than the average Japanese person and crowding the seat(s) next to you? They must not sit next to him because he's black.

You’re really clinging to your “he’s too wide” rationale. Read the article. He’s subject to racism. It’s okay for him to comment on that, and the response over time should be that a society better upholds the idea that each human is equal.

But I’m sure you’re still convinced it’s something to do with the width of the seats.

Only on HN. Honestly.