News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by hos234 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:39AM (#21334489)
There is a big difference between Observation (which is what Snowden is doing) and Analysis (followed by Solutions). It's not healthy to confuse the two.

Snowden is pointing out an issue. And he has done it with courage that I massively respect. You hardly see it these days. And that makes it anxiety and fear inducing, as the solutions are unknown.

But think of it this way - tomorrow someone might hand you a diagnosis of cancer. You can freak out about it or you can find a Cancer specialist to see what options are available. Asking the technician who gave you the report what the odds are, doesn't make any sense. He knows only how to create the report.

In this case just look to history, to understand how these things play out. History is the Oncologist.

Intelligence agencies have hard problems to deal with. On top of it, they are giant bureaucracies which means cockups, incompetence, turf wars, hiding issues are the norm. All that amplifies the problems, causes defensiveness, over-reactions and reactions to reactions.

If you read the history (and these days there are tons of resources) this sequence of events (of overreach) has unfolded a thousand times. There are a whole bunch programmes that have been shutdown because one group or the other got carried away or did damage. That history (in out current environment of over information/disinformation/misinformation) is what will always be a source of hope and faith.

Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by program_whiz on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:48AM (#21335165)
“Better that right counsels be known to enemies than that the evil secrets of tyrants should be concealed from the citizens. They who can treat secretly of the affairs of a nation have it absolutely under their authority; and as they plot against the enemy in time of war, so do they against the citizens in time of peace.” ― Baruch Spinoza
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by program_whiz on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:50AM (#21335183)
“the ultimate aim of government is not to rule, or restrain by fear, nor to exact obedience, but to free every man from fear that he may live in all possible security... In fact the true aim of government is liberty.” ― Baruch Spinoza
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by CamperBob2 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:15PM (#21336095)
That makes no sense. Perfect liberty and perfect security are mutually exclusive.
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by blotter_paper on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:11PM (#21336670)
I tend to agree with your sentiments, and my political comments are typically pretty anarchistic, but I don't think we should let language become a barrier to communication instead of a bridge. I can understand how some conceptions of "liberty" are increased by certain security measures. If you can safely have a picnic in the park, you have the liberty of safely picnicing. If the park is full of bandits who consistently take baskets from picnicers, you've lost the liberty of safe picnics even if the official government isn't the one who took that liberty from you.

Again, I'm not arguing for increased security, just for understanding the way others use language.

Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by unethical_ban on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:01PM (#21336578)
The freedom from worrying about hunger and basic needs and violence from others is security. It isn't referencing total physical security, it is referencing government vs. no government.
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by Errancer on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:29PM (#21336241)
M8, Spinoza had some wild ontology to justify his claims
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by darepublic on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:00AM (#21334688)
The cancer metaphor is apt because noone knows how to cure it completely
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by asjw on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @05:01PM (#21338971)
The difference here is that the oncologist doesn't just observe.

The oncologist deals with the consequences of the observation: communicate with the patient, gives advices on treatments, makes a therapy plan, deals with families, answer to their questions, takes the hit when the relatives think that the solution is not good enough or an Indian shaman could cure everything with snake's poison.

Snowden have done good, but escaped from the consequences of his actions.

A position that made everything he's done questionable

Had he faced a trial, even the most unfair of trials, would have put him in the position of being at least true to the values he was trying to protect.

Question the authority, suffer the consequences.

Question the authority, go to Russia is not what generally the public opinion accepts as "honest".

There is much to say also about who leaked the data but didn't protect the source.

The identity of deep throat has been made public after Nixon was already dead for years and Mark Felt was already an old man suffering from dementia.

Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by soraminazuki on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @08:19PM (#21340445)
> Question the authority, suffer the consequences.

I’m pretty sure questioning the authority without fear of retaliation is what the first amendment is supposed to be about. But that aside, your phrasing is a bit misleading. Snowden didn’t question the government. He exposed illegal activities by the government.

Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by cookie_monsta on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @05:43PM (#21339342)
I don't think there was ever a question about hiding his identity - the govt was after him before he'd even left Hong Kong or any leak had been published. At the time he said he didn't care what happened to him.

I find it interesting that you posit Deep Throat's approach as somehow more noble. If Snowden had anonymously leaked and kept on working would that have been less questionable or more honest?

Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by transitionnel on Thursday October 24, 2019 @10:47AM (#21345184)
> Intelligence agencies have hard problems to deal with. On top of it, they are giant bureaucracies which means cockups, incompetence, turf wars, hiding issues are the norm. All that amplifies the problems, causes defensiveness, over-reactions and reactions to reactions.

This is a good point. In an ideal world their job would be less...complicated. So our job as intelligent, capable citizens is to make the system more ideal for them to do their duties.

Making a "captive workforce" out of AI tools and robots is, to me, the ideal solution. Either way it's inevitable. Since no one else will, I'm trying to get out ahead with thoughtful early planning. Communicating a common goal for the nation without fear is the way to get the technology into the hands of the right people. It's up to us, the intelligent and "good people" communicators, to push for it.

Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by Ididntdothis on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:40AM (#21335075)
“There is a big difference between Observation (which is what Snowden is doing) and Analysis (followed by Solutions). It's not healthy to confuse the two.”

Very true. For example I think Marx did a great analysis but his solutions lacked. Same happens often in medicine. People who observe something are asked to also explain it. But if they can’t explain the observation it doesn’t mean the observation is wrong.

Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by bussiere on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:35PM (#21336305)
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/us/politics/edward-snowde...

The problem is how to be sure the line get not crossed ?

[dead]
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by hos234 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:29PM (#21336250)
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by AndrewBissell on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:05PM (#21336611)
I don't really get what the line of argument is here, exactly. The CIA & FBI engaged in massive abuses in the past, including psychological and biological experimentation on unwitting US subjects, so therefore we should be blasé about their ongoing mass surveillance program (which, incidentally, has the potential for much more wide-reaching political and societal damage than anything that's come before it)?

I guess one could also argue for calm on the basis that the Stasi once existed and these days East Germany is an okay place.

And the solutions to these issues are perfectly well known: the intelligence agencies need to be curtailed and reined in, and their ability to indefinitely store massive reams of data about every private citizen brought to an end.

Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by hos234 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:56PM (#21337093)
I said know the history. Such programmes were shut down in the past. Knowing how and why doesn't just reduce anxiety, it gives you a bag of tools to improve on. Assuming everyone knows the history is a big mistake. On top of that there are lot of characters around who benefit from ignorance and stoking anxiety.
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by Ididntdothis on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:41AM (#21335091)
”There has never been this level of government overreach -- if only because of the technology involved. Never has it been like this. Or at least, never has a government survived this”

They always has been overreach. This is not new.

Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by Mirioron on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:53AM (#21335220)
The parent's post means that the overreach has never had the technology we have now. This drastically changes the situation. The government could secretly mandate that all phone manufacturers must secretly record the phone microphone all the time and then this data gets analyzed. If this happens in 10 years, then the general public might not even find out for years, and even if they do, most of the public will just shrug and move on.
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by Ididntdothis on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:58AM (#21335271)
I guess that makes sense but if you take into account technological capabilities then the next overreach will almost always be the biggest because the technology makes larger and larger scale possible.
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by Mirioron on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:05AM (#21335352)
And this is why we need to care more and more about this issue as a society.
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by Ididntdothis on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:27AM (#21335598)
True. With current and soon to be tech we can build surveillance much more pervasive than what the book 1984 describes. It feels like it’s almost inevitable for this to happen.
Re:Edward Snowden on The Joe Rogan Experience [video] by AndrewBissell on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:09PM (#21336643)
It's only "inevitable" because so many people are proscribing the boundaries of political and legislative action on the issue by discussing it with this sense of fatalistic unavoidability. The mere existence of this technology does not imply that the NSA & CIA have to construct a massive data center in Utah which stores all internet traffic forever -- that is a political choice.