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Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by Spivak on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:42PM (#21295322)
This stance is a little silly from tech circles.

Something you are is the perfect form of authentication.

If you had a guard sitting at a door with only biometric information about the people they’re supposed to let in: faces, fingerprints, DNA samples, voice samples, etc. you could not fool them. Why? Because they can authenticate that the reading is coming from the actual person.

This is the revolution. If your phone can with good enough accuracy determine that it’s looking at a real alive attentive human face or a real finger then it’s game over. It’s an auth cred that can literally only be used by you, it can’t be copied, stolen, hacked, phished, and can be totally public while being useless to an attacker because they can’t mint a live human with real matching fingerprint.

If you think of biometric auth as “present a picture of your fingerprint” and not “present your actual finger” then of course you arrive at the conclusion that they’re useless as a credential.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by datapunk on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:55PM (#21295381)
The issue with Biometrics, atleast for those in the US, is that they are not protected by the 5th amendment. Court cases have reaffirmed this, meaning you can be forced to provide your Biometrics for law enforcement to gain access to your devices.

Some may feel this is acceptable with the thought if your not guilty then you should have nothing to hide, but this is a fallacy as it tramples over our 4th amendment rights. With passwords locked in your head, you cannot be forced to give that information as that is protected by the 5th amendment. Accessing the device or any information protected by a password must then be done with other means or not admissible as longer delays violates due process.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by henryfjordan on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:12PM (#21295482)
Android for a while has a feature called "lockdown" where you can force a password entry instead of a fingerprint for the next unlock. Takes a little forethought but it's easy enough to remember when going through customs or being pulled over.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by mehrdada on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:09PM (#21295779)
Simply squeezing a modern iPhone pressing both side and volume buttons at the same time has this effect.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by AmericanChopper on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:20PM (#21295534)
Apple devices require non-biometric auth after boot. Turning my phone off in those situations has worked for me.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by mav3rick on Saturday October 19, 2019 @01:36PM (#21299647)
It's the same with Android.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by scarface74 on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:08PM (#21295447)
You’re assuming that law enforcement doesn’t routinely force suspects to give up their PINs and lie and say it was voluntary.

On the other hand, it was reported in the UK (?) that law enforcement follows around suspects, wait for them to unlock their phone in public and tackle them before they re lock it.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by stordoff on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:31PM (#21295596)
It was done to Ulbricht:

> But at 3:15 p.m., the quiet was broken when, out of nowhere, a young woman in street clothes charged toward Ulbricht yelling, "I'm so sick of you!" and grabbed his laptop. Ulbricht leapt from his seat to grab it back, when the half dozen other readers at nearby tables suddenly lunged for him, pushing him up against a window.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/dead-end-o...

Though the British police are using it as well:

> Undercover surveillance officers trailed Yew and waited for him to unlock his phone to make a call - thereby disabling the encryption. One officer then rushed in to seize the phone from Yew's hand

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38183819

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by Volundr on Saturday October 19, 2019 @10:13AM (#21298581)
What about this cases is "forcing suspects to give up their PINs and lying to say it was voluntary."? Both of these was swiftly executing an arrest warrant before the suspect had an opportunity to lock or destroy their device.... seems reasonable. Definitely no lying to say they handed it over voluntarily.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by scarface74 on Saturday October 19, 2019 @10:42AM (#21298745)
You really haven’t heard about the multitude of cases where DA’s and law enforcement were complicit in convicting innocent people? Do you think that a justice system where DA’s actually put a “B” by Black potential jurors to find a reason to keep them off the jury (the case went to the Supreme Court), or the case where an eye witness didn’t say anything about facial tattoos, the police wanted to convict someone, so they used Photoshop to remove tattoos from the person they wanted to convict so they would “fit the description” would be above forcing a suspect to unlock their phone?

If the government will condone torture to get information out of people because of the “War on Terror”, why wouldn’t they do the same for the “War on Drugs”?

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by datapunk on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:18PM (#21295519)
No one is forced to give up information, you mean they were convinced and ignorant of their rights. Which was given up voluntarily in any case.

The tactic you mentioned has been used here in the US aswell. Something similar was done to DPR that brought down The Silk Road.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by scarface74 on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:46PM (#21295668)
You really don’t think that police brutality is a thing - ie rubber hose decryption?
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by datapunk on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:01PM (#21295744)
I think your point is moot. Is torture legal? Is any evidence gained through torture admissable? Are any law enforcement allowed to use torture to gain access to information?

You should be able to answer those yourself. Legal rights are not trumpt by illegal tactics, no matter what information is recovered.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by scarface74 on Friday October 18, 2019 @08:03PM (#21295967)
Is torture legal?

No, but it happens all of the time.

Is any evidence gained through torture admissable?

If the police lie and say the person wasn’t tortured or do you believe that police don’t lie?

Are any law enforcement allowed to use torture to gain access to information?

Yes and police never lie and district attorneys never illegally withhold evidence from the defense....

You’re making a lot of assumptions that police, judges, and district attorneys play by the rules and that overworked public defenders have the time or the will to be great advocates for defenders.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by disappearance on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:57PM (#21295386)
> Something you are is the perfect form of authentication

Disagree. A bank manger with a gun held to their head is not a bank manager for the intended purposes.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by AmericanChopper on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:16PM (#21295506)
Should an authentication system be expected to reliably determine the motive of the user in addition to their identity? Various anti-fraud systems address this to varying extents, but a bank manager sitting at their laptop, tying in their password and TOTP with a gun to their head isn’t materially different to them providing biometric authentication with a gun to their head.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by zarify on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:17PM (#21295508)
Authentication != authorisation.

The bank manager is still authentically the bank manager, gun or not.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by ryan_lane on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:51PM (#21295685)
Identity != authentication. The bank manager is, from the identification POV, still the bank manager. The bank manager may not be intending to authenticate, though.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by jryle70 on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:15PM (#21295810)
I think you're splitting hairs. Authentication simply means to verify someone being who they claims they are. No more, no less.

If we go by your definition login with id and password isn't authentication either. How would we know if the person is "intending to authenticate"!

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by lonelappde on Friday October 18, 2019 @10:15PM (#21296389)
The bank manager is identified, but the request is not authenticated.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by CDSlice on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:19PM (#21295524)
How is this any different of a scenario than having the bank manager memorize a password? They can still force the bank manager to give up the password by threatening to blow their brains out.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by godelski on Saturday October 19, 2019 @06:05PM (#21301048)
> How is this any different of a scenario than having the bank manager memorize a password?

Because in the other scenario the bank manager can be killed and the murderer can still use the "key" (the bank manager's lifeless face). Dead or alive the bank manager is still that same person.

With a password there's more security for the bank manager. If the robber kills the manager then the robber can't get in.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by yencabulator on Saturday October 19, 2019 @11:18PM (#21302136)
A second password could delay opening the vault (with a pretty animation), alert cops/security, and even lock the front door from the inside. The bank manager is unlikely to have a second face for doing the same.

Biometric auth needs an "under duress" mechanism to be at all comparable.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by scarejunba on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:46PM (#21295347)
In general, I'm on board with what you're saying, but there's a thing with security credentials: it's important for me to allow me to give them away to the guy with a knife.

If knife guy comes for me and says "Your phone and password or your life" I can give it to him. It's kind of important that I can or else he'll take my bloody finger with him and body integrity is way more important to me than any amount of my data.

Literally, I prefer my fingers attached and you can clear my bank account rather than the alternative.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by Marsymars on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:59PM (#21295399)
The solution here seems to be some credentialing solution that can neither be given away voluntarily nor taken by force. Is such a thing possible?
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by munk-a on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:09PM (#21295462)
I disagree, I don't think there is any need for proof of identity to not be voluntarily relinquishable.

I think relinquishable credentials are quite useful for a number of delegation related uses - but if they are relinquishable then they need to be expirable as well.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by Marsymars on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:08PM (#21295776)
The guy with a knife won't ask for proof of identity that he knows you can't give up.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by munk-a on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:48PM (#21295922)
If a guy with a knife wants my password I'm going to give it up and walk away alive, then try and recoup the loss of whatever I gave up... maybe I get the debit against an account reversed or purge recent account activity from social media.

There currently is nothing secret like that that I'd give up my life to protect, and I can't conceive of anything of such import existing... for those cases where the item is truly dangerous (like the nuclear football) then a guy with a knife being a threat is already a failure of security.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by rolph on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:11PM (#21295788)
the guy with the knife is why fingerprints retinal or iris scans, and facial metrics shouldnt be used.

You may not be able to give these things but they can be taken, using that knife.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by godelski on Saturday October 19, 2019 @06:07PM (#21301059)
You don't even have to be alive for those things either.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by lonelappde on Friday October 18, 2019 @10:17PM (#21296395)
This is how iPhone works today. Apple bricks your phone if it is stolen, as a disincentive against theft.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by scarface74 on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:09PM (#21295459)
Detached fingers don’t work with modern implementations of fingerprint sensors.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by munk-a on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:11PM (#21295474)
Oh, I was unaware of that - so I'm not certain I want to rely on the knowledge of someone in a position to cut off my finger... additionally, they don't currently work, but I'm sure there could be developed ways to spoof them by artificially circulating warmed blood or some such.

Just... biometrics are such a terrible idea - let's not even open that door.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by rolph on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:16PM (#21295814)
the problem isnt weather or not its true, the problem is how likely someone is to try using a severed part any way, because it just might be FUD and a dead finger is just as good as attached. aside from that, a severed finger continues to live for a while afterward, it doesnt instantly perish. it has to metabolize its oxygen reserves.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by scarface74 on Saturday October 19, 2019 @10:30AM (#21298681)
The most popular and high priced phone has had fingerprint authentication since 2013. If there was going to be a rash of people cutting off fingers, wouldn’t it have happened by now?
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by rolph on Saturday October 19, 2019 @01:55PM (#21299755)
If it happened would any PR department admit it? so far the tactic of waiting for someone to unlock a phone then robbing them has been effective. as soon as it becomes required behaviour it will happen. so far there are methods of hijacking a phone from its original owner, even without the phone in hand [simjacking] and as such tactics are stymied, other more brutal force methods would be required.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by scarface74 on Saturday October 19, 2019 @04:05PM (#21300473)
You really don’t think that would make the news? Why would you have to depend on the PR department? It sounds like another panic without any basis in reality.

And now, that phones are moving toward face recognition isn’t kind of a moot point?

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by hundchenkatze on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:17PM (#21295513)
I'm not convinced that's true.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by scarface74 on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:20PM (#21295530)
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by lonelappde on Friday October 18, 2019 @10:20PM (#21296405)
That spokespersons claim is plainly a lie though, refutable both in theory -- the given explanation is gobbledygook -- and in practice -- Chaos Computer Club has YouTube videos showing that fingerprint cloning works.
Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by scarface74 on Saturday October 19, 2019 @10:08AM (#21298554)
And that “proof” is of a first generation Touch ID, and unless you can find a reliable citation showing where a dead finger would work, how do you know it’s “gobbledygook”?

From a practical standpoint, if someone was willing to cut off your finger, wouldn’t it be easier to just force you a gunpoint to unlock your phone? Someone who really wanted what’s on your phone bad enough to try the “unreliable” hack, would just force you to unlock your phone or give up the password.

Re:The Pixel 4’s face unlock works on sleeping people by macspoofing on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:07PM (#21295445)
>If you had a guard sitting at a door ... you could not fool them.

What??? Of course you could. That's why no building that cares about security actually relies on a human guard for authorization.