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Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by puranjay on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @10:43PM (#21278483)
I don't even know what problem Bitcoin is solving anymore. I haven't seen a single website accepting Bitcoin as a payment in the last whole year.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by bdcravens on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:26AM (#21279141)
We were an early adopter of Stripe’s Bitcoin integration. I even was sent a Stripe t-shirt for finding bugs in their docs. In the entire time until Stripe ended the integration, we never received a single payment using Bitcoin.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by scarejunba on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:13AM (#21279926)
Tbh I'm pretty sure that people who ask for BTC never intend to pay. It's just another deflection in a long list from people who won't pay. I now see it as all kinda wasted effort. Probably should just focus on making things better for the guys with the dollars rather than the guys who promise the money if you'll only do X.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by btcd on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:41AM (#21279488)
Bitcoin's main function is store of value, with the additional benefit of being relatively easy to transfer. It is basically a more convenient form a gold.

After all these years of growth, Bitcoin's market cap becomes its own unique edge. One simply cannot transfer significant amount, say tens of millions of dollars, easily in any other crypto currency.

The cost of energy is minuscule compared to alternative means of achieving the same: vaults, guards, banks, lawyers, etc.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by dx034 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:30AM (#21280002)
> The cost of energy is minuscule compared to alternative means of achieving the same: vaults, guards, banks, lawyers, etc.

Is it though? Gold in vaults easily outstrips the value assigned to all bitcoins and I doubt these vaults use even 1 Twh/year. Vaults are only environmentally expensive in construction. And since we have a surplus of vaults and bunkers (from digitization of stock trading and the end of the cold war, respectively), the only cost is protection. A few guards and some cameras and high security doors can protect >$10mio worth of gold, probably not using more energy than a few households. Managing a farm of ASICs for Bitcoin generating that amount is probably more labor intensive.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 17, 2019 @06:04AM (#21280399)
> The cost of energy is minuscule compared to alternative means of achieving the same: vaults, guards, banks, lawyers, etc.

That's only because Bitcoin is still relatively insignificant blip in the world of trade, mostly a pastime for gamblers and scammers. It's footprint is actually absurdly huge compared to value it provides.

The real problem is scaling. Vaults, guards, banks, lawyers scale somewhere around O(n) to O(n logn) with the size of the market. Bitcoin's proof of work - the means of securing it - scales, to the best of my understanding, as O(n!) with the number of miners. That's not something you can run a global economy on.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by xg15 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:58AM (#21279573)
So the purpose of Bitcoin is to give billionaires better tools to move their wealth around while externalising the energy consumption and CO2 omissions to all of us. Thanks a lot!
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by btcd on Thursday October 17, 2019 @03:07AM (#21279607)
That is a side effect, not the purpose. Millionaires can use Bitcoins to move their wealth too. I'd say even for a transaction of $1,000, it is often cheaper to move in Bitcoins.

On the contrary: the purpose of private banks is almost exclusively for billionaires to move their wealth around, while externalising costs to all of us. Many financial market interventions in the past are the society bailing out billionaires who bet irresponsibly and cannot bear reducing themselves to millionaires.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by arcticbull on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:55PM (#21283979)
> That is a side effect, not the purpose. Millionaires can use Bitcoins to move their wealth too. I'd say even for a transaction of $1,000, it is often cheaper to move in Bitcoins.

Compared to a free domestic ACH or wire?

Internationally you have to pay exchanges on the receiving end >1% fees to convert it to something you can actually spend.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by londons_explore on Thursday October 17, 2019 @03:11AM (#21279626)
Buy $10M worth of bitcoin, and then sell it again the next day, and we'll see how much you lost (on average).

I'd guess you'll lose far more than doing the same with gold, because the market slippage due to lack of liquidity far exceeds the cost of those vaults, banks, and guards.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by btcd on Thursday October 17, 2019 @03:20AM (#21279676)
This is not true. I used to be a professional market maker in Bitcoin. This year, Bitcoin market is relatively calm in at least half of the time, meaning 12 hours out of a 24-hour day, longer than most established equity market. Under these normal conditions, trading $1m worth of Bitcoin moves the market by less than 0.01%.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by londons_explore on Thursday October 17, 2019 @10:13AM (#21282248)
Citation needed. Checking the bitfinex order book: https://www.bitfinex.com/order_book

A trade of $10M, or 1250 bitcoins, would move the market by 6%

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by sobani on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:12AM (#21290063)
Maybe pick an exchange that isn't #60 based on transaction volume?

https://coinmarketcap.com/rankings/exchanges/

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by xur17 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:38AM (#21278961)
I regularly use it to pay for gift cards on cardcash for an additional 2% discount. It makes a lot of sense for sites selling items highly prone to fraud or with thin margins.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by sodafountan on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:40AM (#21278967)
It's solving a much much bigger problem than electronic payments (which was never really a problem in the first place unless you're overly concerned about privacy). We have a major problem with inflation in this world, you can't just put your money somewhere and have it retain its value anymore and it hasn't been like that for years, we're forced to play the stock market game which just consolidates power to big corporations and leaves a lot of people all over the world left behind - bitcoin actually solves that problem, and just to drive that point home, if you'd invested in bitcoin and held during just about any given 365 day period throughout its ten year lifespan you'd have likely beaten the stock market in gains by a lot, that helps a ton of people, especially young people who are saddled by debt. We have countries that have no reliable form of currency at all, again bitcoin solves that problem.

I agree with some of the sentiment of the article, bitcoin's energy consumption is something to keep an eye on and if we can seamlessly move to an algorithm that's greener then so be it but you have to realize the tremendous amount of good that bitcoin is doing for the world and will likely continue to do as it becomes scarcer and scarcer, don't knock a technology that can single handedly lift a continent like Africa out of poverty.

*edit: Nothing like defending bitcoin on Hacker News and getting downvoted to oblivion, hey rather than downvote why don't you point out exactly what you disagree with so we can have a discussion

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by arcticbull on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:47AM (#21279245)
> We have a major problem with inflation in this world, you can't just put your money somewhere and have it retain its value anymore and it hasn't been like that for years, we're forced to play the stock market game which just consolidates power to big corporations and leaves a lot of people all over the world left behind...

The Bank of Canada found that a Bitcoin based economy would have the same amount of drag as a 48% rate of inflation [1].

A 2% rate of inflation is trivial in the near term, and in the long term encourages productive allocation of capital. Inflation literally only matters to people sitting on cash -- and that's the point! If you invest it in anything inflation stops mattering and the constant-dollar return starts to matter.

[1] https://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/swp20...

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by gl00pp on Monday October 21, 2019 @02:31PM (#21315608)
So you're essentially saying:

"If you have cash, you should gamble it by investing it in stocks or business."

but that's risking the money I earned. I don't want to risk it, I earned it, I just want to save it and not have it evaporate over the years.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by fierarul on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:16AM (#21279937)
> we're forced to play the stock market game which just consolidates power to big corporations and leaves a lot of people all over the world left behind

We at least know the names of big corporations. Otherwise "we're forced to play the BitCoin game which just consolidates power to big anonymous holders and leaves a lot of people all over the world left behind".

85% of the BitCoins have already been mined. It's beyond the reach of people to participate in mining. What's left is pure speculation, based on the available supply. There's also a "culture" of HODL which means the actual exchange rate is determined by very few (big) sellers.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by gl00pp on Monday October 21, 2019 @02:34PM (#21315650)
Even if the 'BitCoin' <sic> is distributed exactly the same as money is now the 80/20 Where 20% of the population control 80% of the money.

Wouldn't it be better if your money (that was BitCoin <sic>) increased 2% a year instead of decreased 2% a year?

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by puranjay on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:46AM (#21278988)
> We have countries that have no reliable form of currency at all, again bitcoin solves that problem

Countries that don't have reliable forms of currency also don't have reliable power or internet access.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by biolurker1 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @07:42AM (#21280956)
this will change with satellite internet coming for the masses and will make Bitcoin really useful in war regimes
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by zygimantasdev on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:54AM (#21279020)
I would argue all currencies are unreliable ,because they go down in value due increase of supply. Throwing 2-4% every year sounds awful
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by atq2119 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:36AM (#21279466)
This gets repeated over and over again, but the causality of this has never been proven, as incredible as that may sound.

Yes, the causality of "create too much money -> inflation" is plausible (but note the emphasis on "too much").

However, we live in a world of endogenous money, where money is largely created by commercial banks in the form of loans to private entities. When prices increase, those loans get bigger. So there is also the causality "inflation -> create more money".

At the same time, there are other factors that can drive inflation, such as workers and companies exercising price setting power (which Econ 101 likes to pretend doesn't exist, but plays an important role in the real world).

So yeah, the causality that you're casually throwing out there hasn't actually been proven as the driving factor here.

At the same time, the widespread belief in it and similar misunderstandings causes us as a society to make extremely damaging macroeconomic policy decisions, in particular the decision to attempt to fight recessions using monetary policy instead of fiscal policy.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by zygimantasdev on Thursday October 17, 2019 @10:46AM (#21282598)
Thank you for reply, it is extremely interesting. Can you recommend books/any type of articles on this topic?
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by paulmd on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:48AM (#21279524)
bingo, money is enormously more complicated than microecon suggests. Micro-econ thinks Keynesian economics are full of shit, yet they stimulated us right out of a micro-economic hole during the 30s.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by londons_explore on Thursday October 17, 2019 @03:14AM (#21279637)
Bitcoins rate of coin creation is also ~7% per year at the moment...
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by tromp on Thursday October 17, 2019 @07:23AM (#21280857)
No; it's approximately 3%.

We had 4 years with 4x the reward, 4 years with 2x the reward, and about 3 years with the current reward, which makes for 1/(4x4+4x2+3) = 1/27 inflation.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by sodafountan on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:51AM (#21279004)
and yet all you need is a simple phone and access to these satellites: https://blockstream.com/satellite/

I agree the infrastructure isn't there yet but problems with national currency is a government issue, infrastructure issues can usually be solved but governmental issues tend to be a lot harder and all countries that rely on fiat currency are subject to inflation

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by puranjay on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:12AM (#21279098)
Countries that don't have reliable currencies are countries like South Sudan and Somalia. Do you really expect illiterate people (3 in 4 women in Somalia are illiterate, 1 in 2 men) to use Blockstream?

You can tell that Bitcoin, and its advocates, are from developed countries. No one who has lived in a developing country and seen crushing poverty would make such arguments.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by RidingPegasus on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:25AM (#21279426)
Given the choice would you suggest a person from somewhere such as Venezuela keep their personal savings in Bitcoin or Venezuelan bolívars?
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by paulmd on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:46AM (#21279516)
I'd suggest keeping it in USD or other hard currency. Bitcoin provides no advantages in obtaining/transacting hard currency relative to other currencies, nor any stability while holding it. Either way you are going to a black market, and you are paying real, unaffordable conversion rates compared to transacting in (worthless) hyperinflationary currency.

The bitcoin guy is not going to accept 1 Zimbabwe dollar to 1 USD any more than your black market dealer who has USD. The real currency conversion rate is the problem, not the act of obtaining actual hard currency.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by zadler on Thursday October 17, 2019 @03:45AM (#21279804)
USD bills can’t be easily transferred over the Internet.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by paulmd on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:41AM (#21280053)
look at this scrub who's never heard of venmo

yes, there are a lot of fungible ways to transfer hard currency over the internet... once you acquire it.

again: acquiring it is the hard part, because nobody wants to trade a zimbabwe dollar for a USD.

Bitcoin does nothing to help your zimbabwe dollars be less worthless than they are in USD, therefore they don't help the currency conversion process at all.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by feanaro on Thursday October 17, 2019 @08:02AM (#21281088)
Venmo, the service exclusively available in the United States? https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/235225428-Signing-U...
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by atq2119 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:39AM (#21279482)
This is a false dichotomy, since USD are very widely spread on South America.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by arcticbull on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:08PM (#21284114)
Each BTC transaction fee costs 2 weeks average wages in Venezuela my dude.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by crtasm on Thursday October 17, 2019 @07:45PM (#21287379)
Here's a list I found earlier: https://www.wheretospendbitcoins.co.uk/search

I might order a raspberry pi from The Pi Hut and a hammock with 50% off for paying with BTC at another site.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by mirimir on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:50AM (#21280088)
There are hundreds of VPN services that accept Bitcoin. It's easier to list ones that don't: HideMyAss.

Many server, VPS and web hosting services accept Bitcoin.

You can buy giftcards for many sellers with Bitcoin.

And there are Bitcoin-funded debit cards.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by glenneroo on Thursday October 17, 2019 @07:35AM (#21280916)
And I have seen ever more who do such as Overstock, Microsoft, Expedia, Wikipedia, Namecheap, NewEgg. I'm sure there are more.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by biolurker1 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @07:40AM (#21280943)
you missed the news of the last couple of years with all these names dropping btc because if the high fees, a problem that could be solved but wasn't due to politics
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by arcticbull on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:01PM (#21284708)
Also transaction times + volatility. Because it takes so long to confirm, the underlying exchange rates were shifting out from under customers, so even though you'd paid the right amount, by the time the transaction cleared, they either needed to refund you or you needed to pay extra. The whole system was so asinine nobody wanted to use it, and it created tons of customer service headaches.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by paulmd on Thursday October 17, 2019 @03:13AM (#21279632)
the problem is largely allowing chinese nationals to extract hard currency past PRC capital controls (any electricity you burn is converted to BTC, and it's easy to bribe a local official to ignore it) and a side of russian mafia transactions (cryptolocker/etc)

there really aren't any significant (legal) north american/european transactions that occur in BTC

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by Erlich_Bachman on Thursday October 17, 2019 @08:20AM (#21281209)
Care to cite your sources?