News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by hnuser54 on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @05:02PM (#21263720)
I love Tor, but it's almost suspicious how fast it's become, like I'm wondering who's paying for all this bandwidth. Home, businesses, hotels, you name it, Tor Browser almost never takes more than 2x as long to load anything on the web as the raw connection does. I admit don't have an understanding of how Tor works mathematically. There are organizations funding Tor exits and relays (torservers.net, Emerald Onion, Tor Project itself) but has anyone added up the bandwidth they provide and compared it to the total?
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by schoen on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @06:10PM (#21264493)
The Tor Project tells relay operaters to set a value called MyFamily to declare which relays are run by the same person or group, so that Tor users won't use more than one relay in the same path with the same operator.

https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/tor-manual.html.en#MyFa...

Of course, a malicious relay operator that wanted to increase its chances of being used as both the entry and exit nodes in a single path (and thereby easily being able to correlate traffic between its origin and destination) could add a lot of nodes and not own up to their relationship.

Some people in the Tor community try to watch for relay-creation behavior that they consider suspicious. A common example is a large number of new relays that appear within a short period of time with similar characteristics and don't declare common ownership.

Edit: one of the main tools for this is OrNetRadar, which seems to primarily use the autonomous system number in which the relays are located, as well as the timing of their creation: https://nusenu.github.io/OrNetRadar/

In this case, the relays can be given a flag like BadExit by the Tor developers, which will stop any Tor client from selecting those relays as exit nodes in a path. However, a sufficiently malicious attacker could add a lot of network capacity in a way that isn't recognizably associated as belonging to the same entity, for example by adding nodes in different data centers, with different speeds, with different software environments, and not all coming online at the same moment. In that case, there wouldn't be a way to easily infer that these nodes are associated with the same operator.

As someone has said elsewhere in this thread, there's still the hope that if different organizations add network capacity with malicious intent, they tend to undermine one another's chances of succeeding, at least as long as they aren't directly colluding (because the basic security goal in Tor is that clients choose paths whose constituent relays don't share information with one another).

Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by kriro on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:46AM (#21267716)
It seems like I can query BadExit status (which of course makes sense, as the client wants to avoid bad exits) so that makes it a bit useless as a protection mechanism against determined malicious agents that operate at scale. In fact it makes it quite easy to set up some experiments to find the best ways to circumvent this.

Experiment A: fire up a baunch of nodes one way, see how many are marked as BadExit; experiment B: vary the way you fire up on one variable (time-delay, node server Os etc.), measure, repeat

Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by schoen on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:38PM (#21273050)
True. In fact, many of the discussions within the Tor community related to detection of colluding nodes even happen in public, so you could observe them on mailing lists and try not to repeat your mistake! This mechanism is very fragile.

By contrast, being marked as a BadExit due to tampering with content can be due to tests whose exact nature isn't disclosed and changes over time, and it doesn't happen instantly, so it might be hard for an individual deliberately malicious exit to deduce which action it took that resulted in the BadExit flag.

Determining whether nodes are secretly colluding (or, equivalently for some purposes, whether their communications can be closely observed by the same adversary!) is a mostly unsolvable problem, and that's an important limitation for Tor's security. There have been some papers that do a statistical analysis about the probability of an individual adversary winning against an individual user, given some assumptions about that adversary's capabilities (what fraction of nodes the adversary controls or observes). Tor has changed its path selection algorithms a bit based on ideas from these papers.

Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by tlrobinson on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @06:31PM (#21264699)
Do Tor circuits always use 3 nodes? It seems like it should randomized/configurable (maybe 3 or 4 by default), such that no nodes can know whether they're an entry node or somewhere in the middle.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by schoen on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @06:35PM (#21264744)
They do always use three nodes.

https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#ChoosePathL...

If you're using public Tor nodes, as opposed to bridges, it's not really feasible to prevent nodes from knowing whether they're being used as middle nodes (they can just check whether the previous node corresponds to another node in the public directory consensus).

Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by KenanSulayman on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @07:50PM (#21265433)
I'm operating three 10Gb Tor exits in a DC in Amsterdam. [1] It seems like a meaningful contribution. I assume the other operators who are not IAs have similar reasons.

[1] https://metrics.torproject.org/rs.html#search/family:38A42B8...

Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by bureaucrat on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:31PM (#21266494)
What datacenter do you use? How much does it cost? Did you get any legal troubles?
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by Aeolun on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @11:44PM (#21266870)
Why would you get in legal trouble for hosting tor exit nodes? There’s nothing illegal about that is it?
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by dspillett on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @05:40AM (#21268610)
The exit node could be the last known trace of illegal activity so someone could perhaps take a shot at you for aiding & abetting or similar. Right or wrong, can you afford that fight?

This is one of those cases where often the question is not whether your actions are legal, the question is whether you can afford the time and resource required, and in some cases take on the potential reputational risk, to successfully defend yourself against someone (commercial, law enforcement, political, ...) who says they aren't and tries to make you stop.

Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by throwaway-9320 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:07AM (#21267231)
Hosting an exit node is not illegal, but some of the users of that exit node may be doing illegal things.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by onetimemanytime on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:38AM (#21267676)
Tell that to the SWAT...after the smoke grenade clears out.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by tripzilch on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:54AM (#21289957)
Did you miss the part where it wasn't the US?
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by onetimemanytime on Saturday October 19, 2019 @03:02AM (#21297235)
every country has their own version of SWAT, some will make USA SWAT seems like angels. Also, I replied to "there's nothing illegal in running a TOR exit."

In short, my reply was: maybe it's not illegal but you might suffer quit a bit by the time it's all cleared.

Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by jdnenej on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:54AM (#21267762)
Are smoke grenades a legit thing outside of counter strike?
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by icebraining on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @05:17AM (#21268492)
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by t34543 on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @09:04PM (#21265986)
Personally or on behalf of a company? I ran two in the US and folded due to legal pressure.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by input_sh on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:28AM (#21267949)
If you don't want legal trouble, don't run exit nodes. I've configured my relay to serve as a middle node. I'm using a provider that's known to be hostile towards Tor relay operators with no repercussions for about two years now.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by KenanSulayman on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:09PM (#21266374)
Personally
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by robert_foss on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:19AM (#21267897)
Good job! And thanks for running it. How much is that NForce server per month? I'm looking to move my nose away from hetzner.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by hosteur on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:00AM (#21267487)
Thank you.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by bureaucrat on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:28PM (#21266474)
I run 3 nodes. They have 1TB traffic cap per month, so they serve 30GB per day per node, and then hibernates. It costs 15$ per month to run. I also use those nodes for personal use, so it’s not that expensive.

Also I’ve convinced my company to run nodes with their VPS credit. 6 nodes, 30GB per day per node. It costs them 30$.

Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by anderspitman on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:19AM (#21267297)
DigitalOcean?
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by bureaucrat on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:58AM (#21267472)
Tor asks not to host on them so no.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by Kiro on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:09AM (#21267545)
Why is that?
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by walrus01 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:58AM (#21268392)
a tor exit node is nearly guaranteed to attract a flood of DMCA notices (relevant to digitalocean, since they're in the US), subpoenas, legal threats, national security letters, regular search warrants, and the rare but not unheard of no-knock bust down the doors search warrant.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by whamlastxmas on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @05:27PM (#21264022)
I've seen what I remember to be credible information, possibly leaks via something like Wikileaks, saying that there was a tremendous number of US government owned Tor nodes. To the point that it was likely your traffic wasn't actually anonymous. I wish I could remember where I saw it.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by derefr on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @05:33PM (#21264079)
You can see at least the first half of any Tor circuit, though, and more-often-than-not I get mostly nodes with IPs from European countries. Are those US-Government-owned nodes, that just happen to be in Europe?
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by the-pigeon on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @08:31PM (#21265750)
Physical location is not really relevant to who owns a node.

Most countries allow anyone to setup a company and operate servers. Any government organization with a small amount of resources can setup a front company and turn on a server.

Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by ColanR on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @06:09PM (#21264490)
That would be insanely easy for the US government to set up.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by LMYahooTFY on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @08:35PM (#21265785)
I also wish you could remember, as my memory is something along the lines of they ran a few nodes on on EC2 for like a few weeks.

I'll try to find a source when I'm off mobile.

Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by codesushi42 on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @09:22PM (#21266095)
That doesn't matter unless they operated all nodes in the routing chain.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by schoen on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:40PM (#21273080)
Operating the entry and exit on a circuit is almost as bad as operating the entry, middle, and exit.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by arthurcolle on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @05:09PM (#21263811)
Don't all those crazy FBI/CMU/(NSA..?) correlation attacks require you to control some majority percentage of the relays and/or exit nodes?

It would definitely be interesting to actually come up with some estimates of how much was being spent in aggregate bandwidth costs, say, 7 years ago, and compare it with what is being spent at present, and see if it matches what would be expected with 'normal user growth' although normal user growth for a relatively niche project like this would be pretty hard to quantify.

Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by throwaway66920 on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @05:33PM (#21264076)
I wonder if there aren’t multiple us agencies competing for a majority share Unbeknownst to each other, all of them limiting the abilities of the others, all of them making it a better platform for those wishing to remain anonymous
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by heavyset_go on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @06:57PM (#21264922)
They're most likely working together.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by arthurcolle on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @07:42PM (#21265367)
In modern times I bet you are right but historically information-sharing wasn't common across the IC

(based on my understanding of post-9/11 reality)

Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by mike_hock on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:27AM (#21267631)
More likely US agencies are competing with Russian and Chinese agencies.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by robert_foss on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:21AM (#21267906)
I've run Exit nodes at home and in DCs for the past 10 years.

https://metrics.torproject.org/rs.html#details/786926E8C497A...

Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by mike_hock on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:23AM (#21267607)
Well, the NSA is funded by taxes, so ... the US taxpayer pays for it.
Re:OnionShare makes it easy to publish anonymous, uncensorab... by bufferoverflow on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @10:13AM (#21270517)
Home internet speeds have improved dramatically in the last decade, especially outside of the US. Most of the EU has gigabit available, and in many countries it's crazy cheap.