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Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by bookofjoe on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @09:36AM (#21258176)
>Because a Tesla is highly dependent on its electronics, once the flash memory in a Tesla’s infotainment unit goes bad, it essentially bricks the entire car. Yikes!
Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by slg on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:30AM (#21258772)
I really dislike how this issue is being presented in the headline and in quotes like this, because it is fundamentally no different than a critical part going bad in an ICE vehicle. The Tesla isn't "bricked" when this flash memory goes bad anymore than a Toyota is "bricked" when its transmission dies. You fix the faulty part and get the car back on the road.

That said, if there is a systemic problem with this part failing faster than it should, which certainly seems to be the case, Tesla should be pushed to either recall the affected vehicles or waive the service costs for those owners who are impacted. But that isn't any different than if there was a design flaw in a critical part of an ICE cars manufacturing.

Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by vorpalhex on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:47AM (#21258976)
In an ICE vehicle, something like a transmission is very expensive and takes up amazing amounts of space, and so any kind of redundancy is very difficult.

But we're well aware that flash memory degrades, corrupts and gets a bit screwy. Flash memory chips are also dirt cheap and quite small - couldn't Tesla of baked in a bit more redundancy in this case?

In our transmission example, any fault in the transmission is not catastrophic, but with electronics, a single bad joint or bridged trace can take the whole thing down.

Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by slg on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @11:24AM (#21259425)
I already implied that this is a design flaw and stated clearly that Tesla should be responsible for fixing this (and it appears they did things to mitigate if not eliminate this flaw when they redesigned the MCU).

I am not defending Tesla here. I am simply pointing out that this is being covered in a fundamentally different way than other cars. My last car was recalled twice for electrical wiring issues. One of the problems could have resulted in a fire and the other one would have resulted in the exact same "bricking" that you see here. Neither of those issues would be covered or dissected like this Tesla issue.

Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by justapassenger on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @01:36PM (#21261261)
> The Tesla isn't "bricked" when this flash memory goes bad anymore than a Toyota is "bricked" when its transmission dies.

That's why Toyota isn't releasing updates to transmissions every few weeks, that are changing it's behavior and using off the shelf parts without proper attestation and testing in all possible configurations.

Tesla moves fast, which is great for progress. But extremely risky for long term reliability of complex machines.

Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by umvi on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @12:21PM (#21260215)
And why should "the flash memory in a Tesla’s infotainment unit" be a "critical part"? This seems like the opposite of a critical part.

That would be like if the CD player in my ICE car broke, suddenly I can't drive my car. Absurd.

Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by dkonofalski on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @01:03PM (#21260820)
>That would be like if the CD player in my ICE car broke

This is not an apt analogy at all. In a Tesla, there is no separate dashboard or control so it's not an optional part like a CD player. It would be more like saying that your transmission failed. It just happens that, because it doesn't need all the other mechanical parts, an EV's "transmission" is the same box that runs the radio, AC, etc.

Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by umvi on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @01:50PM (#21261452)
Well that is a massive engineering fail to decide to make the "infotainment" system tightly coupled with critical car functionality.

A good engineering team would have decoupled them. In an ICE car half of your dashboard could be non functional (climate control completely broken, etc) and the car will still drive because the two systems are decoupled.

Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by dkonofalski on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @02:09PM (#21261700)
>a massive engineering fail

It's not the infotainment part that causes the failure, though. It's the firmware flash chip which happens to be in the same board as the infotainment array. It's not like the radio breaking would cause the car to stop working. Again, this is more akin to the transmission going out. It's just easy to make this sound like an engineering failure because of that. It's similar to saying that the new Google Pixel has a "massive engineering failure" because the "Ok, Google" voice assistant breaks. It's disingenuous to say that because all that happens on the security module. You wouldn't want someone to have access to your phone if the security module breaks but, if that breaks, it also breaks the voice assistant functionality. This phrasing makes it sound like a fault in the voice assistant can block access to the entire phone which is intentionally misleading.

Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by umvi on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @02:45PM (#21262182)
It's a coupling engineering failure no matter how you spin it.

Diagnostic logging should be stored on a separate (re: decoupled) flash chip. If that flash chip wears out, the car should still drive.

Something is too tightly coupled right now, as evidenced by the existence of the article.

Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by dmitrygr on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @02:23PM (#21261871)
No, because Toyota does not use consumer-grade parts in cars. This eMMC (H26M42002GMR) is not even rated for automotive temp range! (flash wears out faster and retains data worse at higher temps)
Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by Unklejoe on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @02:27PM (#21261918)
> it is fundamentally no different than a critical part going bad in an ICE vehicle

The main difference is that the probability of a typical ICE ECU or TCU failing is much lower than a Linux-based infotainment system running on non automotive grade flash.

Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by snag on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:27AM (#21258727)
Cars are not "bricked" : this issue is well known and some Tesla hackers have solutions to fix. Rich rebuilds YouTube channel did a report on fixing flash cards on a Tesla : https://youtu.be/o-7b1waoj9Q?t=510
Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by metalforever on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @09:39AM (#21258204)
Someone that has had a few classes in electronics should be able to replace this.
Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by SXX on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @09:55AM (#21258353)
Unless your car has DRM that prevents you from tampering with it's flash memory...
Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by spinach on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:11AM (#21258504)
Seems a bit more complicated than just unsoldering the old chip and putting in a new one.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190621052637/http://teslaservi...

Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by joezydeco on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:46AM (#21258972)
However, if it's similar to how Apple does it, the chip might be bound to the processor via a serial number or some other magic that's burned into the NAND at manufacturing, or OTP on the processor, or something else.

It's not just a matter of "oh just go get a Hynix NAND part from DigiKey and reball the PCB". At minimum you need to copy the data over. At worst you need to bless the part with whatever secret sauce Tesla is using at the factory.

Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by Avamander on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:08AM (#21258482)
It takes more than that to replace a BGA flash chip.
Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by lightedman on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @11:50AM (#21259745)
A BGA can be replaced with a freaking heat gun from Home Depot and some solder braid and some flux.

Source: I used to repair cable boxes for CTDI. While everyone else is using their Metcal station and wasting 5 minutes, I've got the BGA off, board deballed, and a new BGA package installed and ready for PKI in less than 45 seconds with a heat gun.

Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by cptskippy on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:22AM (#21258662)
Not that much. BGA chips aren't that hard with a hot air station. I've done plenty of de-soldering and reflow using just a hot air gun.
Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by rasz on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @01:11PM (#21260927)
Not really, you can learn to handle BGA in 4-7 days and $2-3K from some very best people in the business https://www.ipadrehab.com/index.cfm?Page=Practical-Board-Rep...
Re:Flash Memory Wear Killing Older Teslas Due to Excessive D... by wasdfff on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @01:12PM (#21260939)
Good luck finding the part and not voiding your warranty