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Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by snagglegaggle on Friday October 11, 2019 @05:59PM (#21228886)
Your first quote is interesting, as that definition fits quite well collectible items. As the brand grows the value of the collectible also grows, and the collectible is purchased to make profit (or can be purchased to make profit; maybe I do the reverse and by GRAM just for the fuzzy feeling it gives me). Yet we do not see such actions taken against companies that produce collectibles.

This is probably because when adding the second, you see there is a major theme of profit redistribution. In all of those cases profit is collected centrally and then redistributed. With a collectible or a token such as gram it is not -- the item may become more valuable, partially due to activities of the creator, but it is not a profit sharing scheme.

So... do Telegram's tokens grant you some definite share of their future profits? You're giving them money, but there is no legal recourse to claim a return from what I can see.

Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by Animats on Friday October 11, 2019 @06:14PM (#21228979)
Collectables usually fail the "common enterprise" prong of the Howey test. Unless the operator is manipulating the market. Then, trouble. "In a fraudulent business scheme based upon the secret and dramatic manipulation of collectible stamp values, Escala and its former CEO, Manning, violated the antifraud and reporting provisions of the Exchange Act...."[1]

[1] https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2009/comp20965.pdf

Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by AlexCoventry on Friday October 11, 2019 @06:25PM (#21229051)
I'm not a lawyer, but I think if you marketed a collectible as valuable to US residents because its price will rise due to your efforts to promote the associated brand, you would come under SEC jurisdiction by passing the Howey test.
Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by DiogenesKynikos on Friday October 11, 2019 @07:39PM (#21229391)
> So... do Telegram's tokens grant you some definite share of their future profits?

Effectively, yes. People who buy these contracts are funding the development of the TON Network. The promised reward is in the form of digital coins on that yet-to-be-developed network. The contract only pays off if Telegram's development succeeds. It's effectively an investment in Telegram.

Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by snagglegaggle on Friday October 11, 2019 @10:41PM (#21230272)
So it sounds like a kickstarter. Does the SEC regulate those? Realize the IRS has ruled cryptocurrency isn't any different than property.

It looks like they claim they are allowed to (https://www.sec.gov/smallbusiness/exemptofferings/regcrowdfu...) but at the same time in various businesses it is normal to take the money before a thing is built, that's just usually how it has to work.

Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by cortesoft on Saturday October 12, 2019 @12:33AM (#21230701)
Kickstarter doesn't give any money back to funders; they get a pre-defined good based on how much they give.

There is no reasonable expectation of profit for people funding via Kickstarter.

Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by theamk on Friday October 11, 2019 @11:36PM (#21230480)
If someone would make a kickstarter that'd promise money returns, then yes, SEC would get involved.
Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by snagglegaggle on Saturday October 12, 2019 @04:24PM (#21235954)
Yeah, and Telegram doesn't promise any return as far as I can tell.
Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by DiogenesKynikos on Monday October 14, 2019 @06:44PM (#21253657)
Telegram promises Grams (digital coins), to be delivered once the TON network is operational. Telegram even projects what the price of a Gram will be on the market.

This is a vehicle for investing in Telegram's business. If you buy this contract, you're giving Telegram money, which they promise to use to develop a new service. They promise to give you a cut of the value created by that new service. This is very much like a stock offering.

Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by milankragujevic on Friday October 11, 2019 @06:03PM (#21228912)
Collectibles are not exclusively purchased to be resold at a higher price ad infinitum. They are at least physical items.
Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by flyGuyOnTheSly on Friday October 11, 2019 @06:10PM (#21228949)
>Collectibles are not exclusively purchased to be resold at a higher price ad infinitum.

Neither is crypto.

I use it to buy real things all the time.

Usually at a significant price discount, to boot!

Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by wmf on Friday October 11, 2019 @09:34PM (#21229946)
In this case the SEC mentioned that there is nothing you can buy with Grams and there won't be for the near future. All you could do with Grams is trade them on exchanges.
Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by milankragujevic on Friday October 11, 2019 @06:11PM (#21228953)
Cryptocurrency. This is about crypto tokens.
Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by snagglegaggle on Friday October 11, 2019 @06:06PM (#21228928)
A large number of people "invest" in collectibles only to resell them for a higher price. See: beany babies, trading card games, figurines, dolls. Just like those items tokens can be owned though their representation isn't much to look at. I'm not sure that is a useful distinction, unless you can explain further? E.g. why doesn't it apply to intellectual property?

I keep getting downvoted -- I'm not arguing that Telegram has a workable business plan, just that this isn't really something the SEC can regulate.

Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by milankragujevic on Friday October 11, 2019 @06:10PM (#21228948)
You can put collectibles on a shelf to impress likeminded friends. Or to feel happy. You can only trade securities and other similar assets. Also, generally if everyone bought figures to resell... I dont know how that can work... There is always an "unlucky fool" who buys from "scalpers" and keeps the item.
Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by derefr on Friday October 11, 2019 @06:10PM (#21228942)
How about virtual collectibles in MMOs?
Re:SEC halts Telegram's $1.7B token offering by milankragujevic on Friday October 11, 2019 @06:12PM (#21228967)
If purchased to resell, then yes it should be and already is mostly made illegal/breach of TOS.

People can buy things to enjoy, not just to resell.