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Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by xhkkffbf on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:45PM (#21227175)
I hate to be a jerk about this, but the headline bugs me. When I first heard the phrase "social justice", I assumed it meant that the people who did the work reaped the rewards. Sort of like the Little Red Hen.

But here, "justice" seems to mean the opposite. No matter how the poker game works out, the dealer redistributes the winnings to everyone including those who made foolish bets.

For what it's worth, I think that capital gains should be taxed at a lower rate because people are putting their own wealth on the line. Someone who buys a stock with $100 could lose the entire $100. Yet if that person gets a dividend of, say, $3 in return for the investment, the authors want this $3 to be treated like ordinary income. But people in regular jobs don't put any capital at risk. The worst that can happen is that the boss cheats them and they don't get paid. In other words, they don't get the $3. They don't put any of their savings at risk.

Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by qntty on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:50PM (#21227226)
If they don't get paid, they have lost the entire value of their labor. Why is this worth less than money? If anything it should be worth more. There are only so many hours in the day.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by DennisP on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:58PM (#21227307)
Well yes, but if you don't get paid your promised wages, you can generally call up a government agency and get them to make your employer pay up. If you buy stock and it drops by 90%, nobody is going to help you.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by throwaway_law on Friday October 11, 2019 @03:18PM (#21227516)
>you can generally call up a government agency and get them to make your employer pay up.

Thats not how it works, you can pay out of pocket for a lawyer to help you, but people in this position can't generally afford a lawyer. Take a look at all the stories of Trump not paying employees, they didn't have a government hotline to call that got Trump to pay up.

Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by DennisP on Friday October 11, 2019 @03:41PM (#21227716)
> The Department of Labor's Wage and Hour Division (WHD) is responsible for enforcing the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). The most common remedy for wage violations is an order that an employer make up the difference between what the employee was paid and the amount he or she should have been paid.

> The WHD conducts investigations as a part of its enforcement of the FLSA and many investigations are initiated by worker complaints.

Not only that, but it can go beyond civil actions:

> Employers who willfully violate the minimum wage or overtime laws are subject to civil penalties of up to $1,000 for each willful violation. Willful violations of the FLSA may result in criminal prosecution and the violator can be subject to a fine of up to $10,000. A second conviction may result in imprisonment.

https://employment.findlaw.com/wages-and-benefits/how-to-rep...

Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by throwaway_law on Friday October 11, 2019 @04:02PM (#21227897)
Yes, but to couch Department of Labor's Wage and Hour Division as a phone number you call to get your money is not how it works.

Nearly 50% are denied after a 6 month process on average. Like disability claims or VA claims or immigration application...or any other administrative legal action, you generally need a lawyer to navigate through the process successfully.

But perhaps you have a personal experience you can share where you called and they got your unpaid wages from your employer.

Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by DennisP on Friday October 11, 2019 @06:09PM (#21228939)
A 50% chance of recovery in 6 months is still a drastic improvement over a 0% chance of recovery if you lost money in stocks.

Also, loss of wages accumulates over time and you're probably going to look for another job or quit if you're not getting paid. But you could easily invest several years of worth of salary in the stock market, and lose the majority if it crashes hard enough.

Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by throwaway_law on Monday October 14, 2019 @10:31AM (#21248665)
>A 50% chance of recovery in 6 months is still a drastic improvement over a 0% chance of recovery if you lost money in stocks.

Not from a taxation standpoint. And investors shouldn't get better tax rates than workers because their is a non-zero chance of losing their investment, if nothing else the deduction of their loss is already built into the system so why give them additional lower rates?

>But you could easily invest several years of worth of salary in the stock market, and lose the majority if it crashes hard enough.

The only people who can "invest several years of worth of salary in the stock market" are independently wealthy people. Again 40% of the country don't have $400 in savings, the numbers speak for themselves the median savings of the top 10% is $170k (even that wouldn't be several years of salary for them).

Risk has nothing to do with capital gains being lower than payroll/income taxes.

Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by pintxo on Saturday October 12, 2019 @06:40AM (#21232025)
Bank bailouts anyone?
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by koolba on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:58PM (#21227312)
If they don't get paid they sue their employer for their unpaid wages. The employee would not owe taxes on the money not received either.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by lwelyk on Friday October 11, 2019 @03:01PM (#21227340)
You realize it costs time and money to sue?
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by ameister14 on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:57PM (#21227294)
All capital represents what was at some point someone's labor. So I labored, was paid, then hired people to labor in exchange for money, then made more money from the products of labor, then risked the value of that labor in an investment. It's not less, and not more.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by conanbatt on Friday October 11, 2019 @03:04PM (#21227386)
True but that has a small ceiling: capital can be your life's savings.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by xhkkffbf on Friday October 11, 2019 @03:09PM (#21227442)
Yes, but the time is worth only $3.

Given the current market conditions, a person must risk $100 to get a return of about $3 max. The capitalist needs to put about 30 times as much at risk for the same reward.

Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by koolba on Friday October 11, 2019 @03:01PM (#21227350)
One curve ball in all this is that you get to deduct and offset capital losses against other capital gains.

That $100 that you lost betting on $LOSER gets to be offset against the $100 you made betting on $WINNER.

Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by RhysU on Friday October 11, 2019 @08:35PM (#21229654)
Sure, you only came out ahead ($Winner - $Loser) and you're taxed on the gains. What's the curve ball?
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by true_religion on Friday October 11, 2019 @03:00PM (#21227336)
All other forms for risk except stock investment are treated like ordinary income. If I start a company but sell no stock, and wholly self fund, then all my profits are treated like ordinary income.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by ipython on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:50PM (#21227227)
You’re right they don’t put their capital at risk.

Laborers are putting something much more valuable at risk: their time. Those at the lowest rungs of the social ladder are also putting their literal bodies at risk.

Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by ameister14 on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:55PM (#21227281)
Their time is not necessarily much more valuable than capital. I know this because they give up time for capital.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by zbyte64 on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:59PM (#21227319)
And since they did the job for free their time is worthless.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by vinceguidry on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:58PM (#21227310)
Needing to buy safety with capital is the awful part.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by xhkkffbf on Friday October 11, 2019 @03:11PM (#21227457)
Yes, time is wonderful and it's a very limited thing, but they're not putting as much on the line. They only risk $3. The capitalist has to risk 30 times as much to get the same reward.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by conanbatt on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:55PM (#21227283)
I think what's worse is that the basic nature of taxes is not taken into account, which is allegedly desired government activities, and instead some sort of moral compensation for existing a la christian church.

The consolidated US government already collects 33% of GDP in taxes: how about consuming the worst performing services of the government? I'm sure there's at least 5% of spending thats a no-brainer pure loss to society.

Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by ownagefool on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:51PM (#21227249)
It's a bit more complex than that though. I'd argue time is a more important commodity than money you put down. You could argue that money was earned by previous time, but the rich poor divide probably isn't going to change withe the latter attitude.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by jgalt212 on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:59PM (#21227325)
> I think that capital gains should be taxed at a lower rate because people are putting their own wealth on the line.

Fine, but how do you do that without keeping the carried interest loophole that just won't go away regardless of which party is in power.

Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by DennisP on Friday October 11, 2019 @03:04PM (#21227398)
Why couldn't you write a rule specifically for that? E.g. if it's your own capital, it's the capital gains rate, if it's somebody else's capital it's income.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by jgalt212 on Friday October 11, 2019 @07:44PM (#21229414)
of course, you can. If you can pass laws, but in the US it's very hard to pass law these days. Ergo, all the fighting over Supreme Court appointees.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by DennisP on Friday October 11, 2019 @09:10PM (#21229836)
We did get a change to the tax law during Trump's administration, so it's not totally impossible.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by luckydata on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:55PM (#21227282)
you don't understand because your values are not aligned to the values of the people making this proposal. I value a just society where most people can live with dignity above the opportunity to become mega rich, you don't.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by option_greek on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:58PM (#21227309)
Also the $100 they put has a chance of boosting economy and jobs.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by slg on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:57PM (#21227299)
There is large spectrum from we redistribute everything to we redistribute nothing. We can probably all agree that "justice" doesn't exist at either extreme, but it is also a vague term and its exact location on that spectrum will vary based on personal opinion. That said, a lot of people believe the location of "justice" on that spectrum is closer to the "we redistribute everything" side than where we currently sit and a move to more redistribution would therefore yield more justice. That is the opinion put forward in the article and hence the headline.
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by throwaway_law on Friday October 11, 2019 @03:16PM (#21227500)
>I think that capital gains should be taxed at a lower rate because people are putting their own wealth on the line.

Its a luxury to have wealth you can invest and grow without actually having to work for a wage. Plus you are overstating the downside, because if they lose their $100, its a tax write off on their next bet they win. If passive income is such a burden because the taxes you are paying, then don't invest and get a job and pay the higher payroll/income taxes, believe it or not no one really cares, just the same as investors don't really care that the rank and file employees who are making them returns don't have healthcare, don't have pensions and are living hand to mouth.

> But people in regular jobs don't put any capital at risk.

You are justifying taxing the working class at a higher rate for being poor.

>They don't put any of their savings at risk.

Because they are living hand to mouth and don't have savings...and thats not because of "foolish bets" at the poker table. The US doesn't have the lowest social mobility rate in the World for nothing or because people are going out and blowing their wealth on bad decisions. The system isn't just stacked against social and economic mobility...the capitalists are actively trying to indebt the working class for life, and the numbers suggest they have been winning for decades now.

Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by random023987 on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:46PM (#21227190)
Life isn't a poker game.

You can't take the same rules from Vegas and apply them to health care and human rights.

Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by cabaalis on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:52PM (#21227262)
It is, though. Your employer or your clients are risking their money for future gain. To make more money than they put into it, to be "richer."
Re:How to Tax Our Way Back to Justice by qmmmur on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:52PM (#21227258)
Not only that, but the parent is disregarding the human capital put on the line. Time spent educating and specialising is the equivalent of a bet at times.