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Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by remarkEon on Thursday October 10, 2019 @10:50AM (#21215135)
Why is Turkey in NATO? At this point Their behavior is nothing but antagonistic at best and downright nefarious at worst.
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by ChuckNorris89 on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:00AM (#21215246)
Because decades ago during the early stages of the cold war, the US needed a place close to Russia to plant nukes and Eastern Europe was taken, so Turkey was the best option at the time.

But now, with Eastern Europe and the Baltics part of NATO there are better options and Turkey's membership should be reviewed.

Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by sahinabi on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:14AM (#21215412)
Take a look at the number of Syrian refugees each country hosts, compare it to their population and GDP if you feel like it.

Turkey have many problems dealing with its minorities, neighbours, even its own citizens, sure - but on this issue, maybe its time to get off your high horse, before calling any country nefarious. Are we really worse than Spain, worse than France, worse than UK? Why do they have a say in it without helping the problem in the slightest?

Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by remarkEon on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:25AM (#21215568)
NATO's charter isn't "refugee caretaker of the world". It's a mutual defense pact. I'm not interested in playing word games around who is the most humanitarian country (Turkey would lose that one anyway) - I asked a specific, strategic question about what benefit Turkey adds to the rest of NATO alliance members.
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by ghostpepper on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:21AM (#21215525)
What about buying billions of dollars of weapons from Russia? Does that qualify as grounds for expulsion from NATO?
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by sahinabi on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:27AM (#21215609)
What about arming and aiding a terrorist organization who is fighting with your NATO ally? Does this qualify?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6AEyhHMnT4

Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by ceejayoz on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:27AM (#21215608)
Depends a bit on whether those weapons have internet access.

We used to pay people handsomely to get our hands on Russian weaponry to play with.

Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by ListeningPie on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:26AM (#21215587)
How are buying weapons from Russia grounds for expulsion from Nato?
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by jbob2000 on Thursday October 10, 2019 @06:16PM (#21219731)
NATO was formed as a deterrence against Russian aggression. To then buy weapons from them is a pretty big conflict of interest.
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by zwieback on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:04AM (#21215304)
It made sense during the cold war but they need to be kicked out now.
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by iddqd on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:06AM (#21215337)
If Turkey got kicked out of NATO on bad terms, who do you think will step in to fill the power vacuum?
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by zwieback on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:24AM (#21215556)
I don't think whatever power Turkey has is controlled by NATO. At this point I'm more concerned about the Collective Defense article - would NATO be aligned against Turkey's enemies? I don't think so.
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by remarkEon on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:09AM (#21215361)
What power vacuum? What power projection is Turkey really capable of?
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by treis on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:15AM (#21215430)
The parent is saying that Turkey will fall into Russia's (or maybe China's) orbit. I'm not sure how accurate that is because Russia backs Assad and Turkey is against them. There'd also be some tension in the Iran/Russia/Turkey triangle.

IMHO, I don't think we should care that much. The middle East's importance is waning and it's been nothing but trouble for 50 years. Better to step back and let others play the game.

Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by chosenPixel on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:18AM (#21215472)
It has the second largest army in the NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by adwww on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:25AM (#21215575)
Even in a cold war scenario though, I can't imagine that army was ever intended for anything other than defending Turkey and looking after their own interests.

They have successfully played the west in exchange for a few US air bases.

Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by dev_dull on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:11AM (#21215385)
Turkey is a huge trading partner to the US and not really a rival. They make the chassis to our next-gen fighter planes, for example. Why toss that aside?
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:24AM (#21215562)
> Turkey is a huge trading partner to the US

Turkey’s entire economy is like half the size of New York City’s. And in any case, ejection from NATO doesn’t mean comprehensive sanctions.

Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by remarkEon on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:16AM (#21215439)
Why toss that aside? I actually didn't know that the chassis for the F-35 is manufactured in Turkey. Do you have a source for this? If this is the case then it seems incredibly shortsighted to source a critical component from half-way around the world - from a country that obviously doesn't like us very much.
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by 0003 on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:26AM (#21215596)
That's the way these things tend to work out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning...

This said, Turkey is being removed from the supply chain. Of course, this comes at about a a half a billion in costs... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-turkey-security-f35/p...

Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by pmontra on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:25AM (#21215578)
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by unclesams-uncle on Thursday October 10, 2019 @12:08PM (#21216144)
If Turkey leaves NATO, they will further ally with Russia.

Considering Turkey's strategic location, it's better to have Turkey in NATO instead of as an adversary, even if its leadership doesn't align with the values of other NATO members.

Erdogan knows that he has a ton of leverage and chooses to maximize his advantage.

There are a lot of moving pieces here. He's overcalculated a bit and his nationalist policy has hurt the Turkish economy.

Likewise, many European countries rejecting Turkey's EU bids last decade on thinly-veiled Islamaphobic pretenses only strengthened his nationalist message at home.

The west knows it, but they also know that they would rather have Turkey nominally on their side than not.

It will probably take cooler heads and or a major economic downturn to shift that sentiment. Until then, Turkey maintains its seat in NATO.

Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by throwaway5752 on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:21AM (#21215519)
Because it's the least worse outcome (Nash equilibrium sense). Geopolitics don't work on feelings, they work on game theory.
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by mda on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:04AM (#21215315)
It cuts both ways, I am not sure US's sketchy and inconsistent behavior in Syria was in the interest of NATO either. This whole affair is a clusterf* and I don't think pushing Turkey further away will do any good to anyone. Also thankfully organizations like that are operated slightly better than HN and Reddit armchair strategists.
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by yalph on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:23AM (#21215548)
Vietnam and Iraq US killed 3 million civilians. Cant say that about Turkey. Why the hell is US in NATO?
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by pi-victor on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:00AM (#21215250)
because: a) Turkey is the (almost literal) culture gate between Europe and the Middle East, this is in itself very valuable. b) Largest army in Europe. c) Erdogan still has to restrain himself because he has treaties with NATO allies. Otherwise we might get a second unhinged Putin. That would cause a real headache for the EU that tries to stop immigrants from reaching its borders by millions.
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by remarkEon on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:12AM (#21215393)
>Turkey is the (almost literal) culture gate between Europe and the Middle East, this is in itself very valuable.

If this were true why do ME refugees not want to stay there?

>Largest army in Europe.

Okay, but if they're more culturally similar to the ME, as your first point implies, than to e.g. Germany doesn't it become a little problematic for employing this army in NATO's current theater of operations?

>Erdogan still has to restrain himself because he has treaties with NATO allies...

This is a great argument for why entangling alliances with people who aren't really your friends or are too culturally distant to even pretend as much are a terrible, awful idea. I believe we fought a World War because of this once.

Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by soganess on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:21AM (#21215512)
They do, Turkey took in a share of Syrian refugees and really that can't be underplayed.

But to answer your question, Erdogan not the coolest dude ever. Plus Turkey doesn't have the greatest history of human rights especially if you aren't Turkic in ethnicity. Just ask the Armenians, Greeks and Kurds(very much related to this issue). All of which happened in the last 100 years.

In short, if you are getting displaced why not go the extra distance? Just because you've been violently displaced from your home (and everything you know) doesn't mean you can't have upward mobility ::eyeroll::.

Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by sahinabi on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:19AM (#21215491)
>If this were true why do ME refugees not want to stay there?

In Europe, west of it, they could earn much more. They don't want to go Romania either for example.

Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by ohduran on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:35AM (#21215724)
> This is a great argument for why entangling alliances with people who aren't really your friends or are too culturally distant to even pretend as much are a terrible, awful idea. I believe we fought a World War because of this once.

People tend to forget that. Thanks for articulating it so well.

Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by ReptileMan on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:11AM (#21215378)
The EU can always stop immigrants no matter the quantity if there is political will.
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by MeteOzturk on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:06AM (#21215333)
What makes you say this? Could you please elaborate
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by yalph on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:25AM (#21215580)
Get off your frigging high horse. Who are you to judge Erdogan when you consistently produce war criminal presidents.
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by loceng on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:33AM (#21215689)
You understand it is bad actors, along with industrial complexes, leading to regulatory capture and bad policy - corruption - regardless of the country's name? It logically makes sense that the US having the strongest military in the world, being the most successful, leading capitalism - will be able to do the most damage by bad actors manipulating towards war and violence.
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by yalph on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:33AM (#21215706)
So shut the ff up about Erdogan. Its not the fault of Turkish citizens.
Re:UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria... by loceng on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:41AM (#21215801)
I didn't say anything about Erdogan - however, "two wrongs don't make a right."

And to add - indeed it's not the fault of the Turkish citizens who are against the tyranny, and those are who we need to align with and help support. Likewise, the US needs support from the world to help counter the bad actors we have here. Or we can all just be angry at "everyone" and rage against innocent people - and watch the whole world burn.