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Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by slg on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:14PM (#21118695)
>Or Option 3, just change the NCAA rules to match California, and let players get paid.

It needs to be pointed out that this law doesn't allow schools to pay players directly. There probably isn't enough money for that without totally restructuring athletic departments around the country (a football team like USC is wildly profitable, but most of that profit goes to pay for unprofitable teams like swimming, volleyball, etc). Paying players directly also has a number of Title IX repercussions that would likely need to be ironed out in court.

This law instead allows the players a way to make money for themselves based off their participation in sports. That simply frees athletes up in the same way that non-athletes are unrestricted from how they can earn money while in school. No actor is going to be kicked out of their school's theater program because they got $200 for acting in a local car commercial. Now the football player won't either.

Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by alistairSH on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:54PM (#21119104)
How do the military academies get around the "no direct payment" rule? AFAIK, all their students (athletes included) are salaried members of the armed services. For a Navy football players, it's literally part of their job description to go to practice and show up on Saturdays.
Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by wkrp on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:59PM (#21119144)
I know for the Naval Academy, you don't get the salary. Even if you were previous enlisted you are no longer paid your salary, though I believe the 4 years in the academy count towards retirement.
Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by alistairSH on Monday September 30, 2019 @04:19PM (#21119309)
That's not true.[1] After expenses, the "take-home" is minuscule, but they are still salaried members of the armed services.

1 - https://www.usna.edu/Admissions/Student-Life/General-Informa...

Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by wkrp on Monday September 30, 2019 @04:36PM (#21119431)
It is a stipend, and stipends are allowed by the NCAA. The handbook in your link calls it a stipend. Since there is a hard cap on how much cash you can actually take from your "pay", I would call it a stipend.
Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by cronix on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:57PM (#21119136)
How is that different than a scholarship paying room/board/tuition for athletes?
Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by jkeuhlen on Monday September 30, 2019 @04:17PM (#21119295)
Because in addition to room/board/tuition, those at military academies are also paid a salary. It's above and beyond cost of schooling, and goes directly to the students instead of to defray education costs. I think that's the "direct" part of "no direct pay".
Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by wkrp on Monday September 30, 2019 @04:40PM (#21119468)
You are not paid a salary while in a military academy, you are given a stipend from which they deduct food, board, and other costs.
Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by alistairSH on Monday September 30, 2019 @04:22PM (#21119329)
jkeuhlen covered it.

Students at the military academies are both on full scholarship (tuition and board paid by the taxpayers) and salaried. After required [non-academic] expenses (uniforms, laundry, etc) the "take home" is tiny. But, that doesn't negate the fact that they are salaried employees of the US government.

And, just to be clear, I'm in no way arguing students at the service academies are over-paid, or shouldn't be paid, or anything like that. I'm just curious if they have an explicit exemption from the NCAA, or if the NCAA isn't following it's own rules.

Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by scott_s on Monday September 30, 2019 @04:20PM (#21119314)
Is USC's football program wildly profitable? The Washington Post published a great investigative piece in 2015 showing how most big football programs are in the red: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/sports/wp/2015/11/23/runni...
Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by sarah180 on Monday September 30, 2019 @04:41PM (#21119480)
"Profit" just isn't really the right concept here. They pay their coach $3.2 million every year. In 62% of US states, the highest paid public employee is a football coach. In another 16% it's a basketball coach. Regardless of whether they return some of their windfall to the endowment, they're raking in cash.

Hollywood movies often show a loss after the studio deducts all the expensive things they bought themselves. Everybody with points against net gets nothing, but the studio still does just fine.

Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by scott_s on Monday September 30, 2019 @05:14PM (#21119711)
I think profit is the right concept. People see the massive spending of these programs, and even if it strikes them as extravagant, they also see the massive revenue of these programs. I think most discussions around this issue take as an assumption that the revenues covers the spending. I think a common way of thinking is "Yeah, it's pretty ludicrous for our university to spend that much money on the football program, but they make it all back, so it's a wash." But it usually doesn't. That's important, and I think would change how people considered the programs if this fact was more widely considered.

I don't think Hollywood movies are a good comparison. The studios will play accounting tricks by setting up shell companies for the purposes of screwing over the people who actually made the movie [1]. That's just pushing paper around, though: if the movies makes more than the studio spent, they turned a profit. Universities aren't doing that; many of their football programs are actual money losers, and they get that money from student tuition or the state if it's a public university.

[1] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121018/01054720744/holly...

Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by tunared on Monday September 30, 2019 @07:00PM (#21120474)
The football programs are mostly non-profits, same with the NCAA. So no, profit, at least for the major programs, is not a concern. The programs receive millions from multiple sources that are spent on staff, coaches and other sports that need to be spent (Universities are not supposed to be profit making institutions). While the athletes that are generating the revenue through their performance every Saturday are paid with scholarships and money for room and board (can't be more than $60k or $70k a year - assumption here). Works out great for the coaches and administrators, not so great for the athletes. It is also not in the NCAA, college administrators, boosters or coaches interest to have the current setup change. Why mess with a good thing. No competition for player salaries leaves more in the coffers to pay the coaches.
Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by dragonwriter on Monday September 30, 2019 @07:03PM (#21120491)
> The football programs are mostly non-profits, same with the NCAA. So no, profit, at least for the major programs, is not a concern.

Non-profit doesn't mean “doesn’t earn profits” or “doesn’t prioritize profit”, but “doesn’t return profits to investors”.

Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by tunared on Monday September 30, 2019 @10:00PM (#21121320)
We can agree that profit is gross revenue minus expenses, correct? Non-profits are focused on maximizing the revenue, but not on the profit for the exact reason you stated, there are no share holders or investors that need to be paid dividends, etc. The non-profit is incentivized to put the net revenue back into the organization. This can be in the form of staff salaries, facilities, other programs in the university. The "profit" portion in a given year means they are just carrying over the revenue for future operations or to stash in a fund. It should not be used in a argument for the "major" universities or top performing programs as to whether or not they should play the players. Revenues are not an issue in those cases. Don't cry to me (universities) that you don't have the money to pay student athletes when your university made over $100+ million dollars in a year and you "barely made a profit" as a non-profit organization.

I can't find the original HBO Real Sports link, but they go into depth about the Non-profit status and the way the funding is spent. It is a real eye opener and made me rethink how the argument that profit/revenue should be considered when dealing with the larger organizations.

Below are references, but not only highlights.

https://www.hbo.com/documentaries/student-athlete

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK5BmWP1y98

Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by dragonwriter on Monday September 30, 2019 @11:26PM (#21121760)
> The "profit" portion in a given year means they are just carrying over the revenue for future operations or to stash in a fund. It should not be used in a argument for the "major" universities or top performing programs as to whether or not they should play the players.

Why not? The economic value of work to the entity for which it is performed is a significant factor in the criteria under which the law now requires other formerly unpaid, often student, workers such as many interns to be paid, even when their employer is a nonprofit. Why should athletes be treated worse?

Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by kodablah on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:22PM (#21118783)
Is there a meaningful difference between a school paying players with booster-provided money and a company doing so?

EDIT: To clarify, I mean a "practical" difference whether a booster gives money to a school to pay players or gives it to a company to do so. The payer matters to law, not to the paid nor to the practical result.

Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by slg on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:36PM (#21118922)
You will have Title IX problems as soon as the school is directly involved paying players. No school receiving federal funds can provide a benefit to its male football players that it doesn't also provide its female field hockey players.

Personally, I also feel that boosters have too much direct involvement in athletic departments as is. Removing the school from the booster-player relationship and bringing booster payment to players out from under the table could potentially help clean up some of the corruption in college sports.

Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by aripickar on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:35PM (#21118915)
In terms of title IX repercussions, there very much is.
Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by kodablah on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:39PM (#21118945)
I was a bit too succinct and therefore unclear. To rephrase, is there any meaningful difference between a booster paying players via the university or a booster taking their money to pay a player and doing it via a company instead? I understand the legal ramifications of who the payer is seen as, I am talking about the practical ramifications and whether a school having a player that is paid by a company rooting for the school (and with monies from same pockets) is meaningfully different. I'd say not.
Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by aripickar on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @10:35AM (#21125743)
The practical difference is that title IX means that universities have to provide equal opportunity for male and female students. If a donor wants the university to pay male athletes $1 from his pocket per athlete, he would have to donate $2 per athlete, since there needs to be equal opportunity for males and females. Currently that manifested itself in equal scholarships, but if the law changes, I would assume it would end up mandating equal $$
Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by shiloa on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:37PM (#21118929)
Of course - think about schools with deep pockets compared to those without much; top talent will flock to these, leaving smaller/less wealthy schools. Today athletes weigh a lot of factors when choosing where to attend - academics, athletic program, campus life, etc. If this becomes the norm I suspect we'll see clusters of high talent in "rich" schools. I don't think that will be good for the long run.
Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by wkrp on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:41PM (#21118976)
Re:CA Governor Signs Bill Allowing College Athletes to Profi... by jsgo on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:35PM (#21118913)
One is an employee, the other is basically an influencer?