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Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by timr on Sunday January 16, 2011 @09:11PM (#2110955)
You've missed the most important two words of that quote: "seems like". She goes on:

"Something that frustrates me about the field of computer science is that there are a lot of jerks who think that just because they've "mastered" some programming language or know some obscure unix commands, they are gods and you are nothing."

And frankly, that's the level at which a typical CS freshman is operating. Lots of knowledge about "coding"...very little knowledge about anything else. The playing field is much more level than it initially seems, but because the CS 101 classes are mostly about writing toy code it's easy for prior coding knowledge to be intimidating. In my own undergrad CS program, the CS101 hotshots fared no better, on average, than the kids who came in with no experience at all. In fact, a few of the loudest initial braggarts were the most spectacular flameouts, and about an equal number of the no-prior-experience kids ended up the honors graduates.

Universities could do a lot to combat this problem -- it might be a good idea to let the high-school coding jocks place out of the first CS classes. Alternatively, making first-year classes more about math and less about code would probably put 99% of all incoming students on an even playing field.

Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by T-R on Sunday January 16, 2011 @09:50PM (#2111038)
I liked what my university's Chinese classes did - they had a special "advanced 101" class. This way, hot shots who still really needed to go through the 101 coursework weren't intimidating those just starting; those who really knew what they were doing could just test into a higher level. Korean classes, which didn't have the "advanced 101", ended up catering to the hottest of the hot shots, and saw a good number of both the hot shots and the non-native speakers dropping out before the 200 level.
Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by antihero on Sunday January 16, 2011 @11:08PM (#2111167)
I do think that the split would be an interesting idea. At my university, our first year programming class was divided between people who found it too hard, and people who found it way too easy.
Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by T-R on Monday January 17, 2011 @02:35AM (#2111507)
We had that, too, but it wasn't really clear cut. We also had a bunch in the middle, who, while they really did need to go through most of the 101 material, they also did their share of intimidating the fresh starters - probably more so than those who really knew the material, who mostly just skipped class.

Since my university had large Korean and Chinese populations, it kind of struck me as parallel to the problems the Asian Studies department had weeding out native speakers looking for an easy A - it was hard to tell them from the kids who could speak but not write. Putting them in a separate section kept them from driving the class, and things went much smoother.

Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by bm98 on Sunday January 16, 2011 @10:00PM (#2111053)
One of the beauties of programs that teach Scheme and ML (or OCaml or F#) in introductory CS is that they level the playing field. The typical high school computer hot shot has never seen anything like functional programming before, and is no better off than anyone else in the class. Follow that with the theoretical foundations of CS and you have plenty of hot shots at the bottom of the class. A professor of mine once said, "Some kids just can't hack the math."
Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by strlen on Monday January 17, 2011 @03:25AM (#2111579)
That's the theory (and I am a strong proponent of teaching Scheme or Haskell in introductory CS followed by C in a data structures class: Visual Blub#++2EE on Rails is something you can learn on your own when you need it for a specific task), but that's not how it is in practice.

My girlfriend took Berkeley's introductory CS class as an undergraduate. She did well in the class, got an A, but she was really put off by the attitude of many classmates who had prior programming experience and judged her for not having any. It doesn't have to be with programming languages: it can be with things like setting up your UNIX shell, using emacs, ssh etc... something that we take for granted but had to learn at one point or another.

While she didn't intend to Major in Computer Science in the first place, I can't help but think that the environment was almost deliberately designed to make sure that somebody who had great potential to be an excellent programmer couldn't accidentally realize it (much as Jean, the author of the article did). Women who are good at programming still end up deciding against it as a career; on the other hand, many men are horrible at programming, but persist at it.

Interestingly enough, in Russia/former USSR the male:female ratio is in Computing is slightly better (more females) than other technical fields. I am not sure whether that's still the case (I left former USSR in 1996). My mother is a software engineer (she introduced me to Scheme and OCaml, back when you weren't considered a real programmer if you worked in anything other than C++). She had many female colleagues when she worked in a Computer Science research lab (back in the days of [Soviet clones of-] PDP-11s, VAXen and IBM 370s, ATT UNIX, etc... when programming was much more incidentally complex than it is now).

Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by strlen on Monday January 17, 2011 @05:28AM (#2111775)
Quick note: forgot to state that Berkeley's intro CS course is taught in Scheme and uses the SICP book.
Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by SupremumLimit on Monday January 17, 2011 @04:37AM (#2111698)
I think the situation in Russia is similar to the US now. We had less than 10% females in computer science when I was at university in the early 2000s.
Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by Locke1689 on Sunday January 16, 2011 @11:03PM (#2111162)
I don't know what you mean by "hotshot" exactly, but all of the people who had extensive experience in my high school also knew functional programming and data structures and algorithms.

I'm not sure math makes all that much of a difference either because the most experienced people in my class were all doing math-related things (myself a physics minor, my girlfriend a math minor, and my two other friends a math and physics double major, respectively).

Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by _delirium on Monday January 17, 2011 @12:56AM (#2111370)
That definitely wasn't the case at my high school. The high-school coders were almost exclusively some mixture of C, C++, Java, PHP, Perl, and maybe bash. There probably were nonzero people who had used Scheme, but I'd be very surprised if it were more than one or two.
Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by rwmj on Monday January 17, 2011 @03:58AM (#2111617)
And if a few of them tried Scheme, then teach Prolog. Nobody knows that ;-)
Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by Locke1689 on Monday January 17, 2011 @05:26PM (#2113718)
Meh. Do you really think learning programming languages is hard? I think with C, C++, Python, Scheme, CL, Haskell, Racket, and ML under my belt it would take me about a day or two to adapt to new syntax and then you'd be back in the same position you started in.

I just wouldn't worry so much about experienced students or give them something extra to work on if they wanted it. I started programming when I was 9, meaning I had been messing around with Linux, systems, programming languages, and algorithms for a full 9 years before stepping into my first class freshman year. My professors did the proper thing and used the finals from the freshman year CS courses to propel me to upper level courses in my first quarter. Don't try to work against experience, work with it.

Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by Hexstream on Monday January 17, 2011 @07:21PM (#2114013)
Failing that, Forth or J ;P
Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by leon_ on Monday January 17, 2011 @04:09AM (#2111648)
It's that "func programming is rocket science"-stigma people nowadays spread. I don't know why they hype functional programming that much (maybe because they could show off the C "hotshots" in their CS 101 course?) but FP is such a basic and simple paradigm that it's not really something to brag about.
Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by aperiodic on Monday January 17, 2011 @04:50AM (#2111712)
My CS professor tries to use less mainstream languages for exactly this purpose–to put everyone on an even playing field. The first two months of labs in the course are taught entirely in Haskell. The lectures are about DFAs and NFAs.

I've graded and TA'd the course for two years, and I think his approach works extremely well. It lets you filter out the people who really get it from the people who are just pattern matching from previous experience.

Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by araneae on Sunday January 16, 2011 @10:16PM (#2111080)
In my own undergrad CS program, the CS101 hotshots fared no better, on average, than the kids who came in with no experience at all.

How do you know this?

At the school where I went, the distribution for CS101 was bimodal; higher peak were the experienced ones, lower peak were the neophytes.

Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by timr on Sunday January 16, 2011 @10:23PM (#2111087)
I'm not referring to just CS101; I'm talking about the whole curriculum. That bimodality tends to go away once you're done taking classes that are a re-hash of what the experienced kids already know as freshmen.

And no, it's not just the effect of "weeding out" the inexperienced kids -- as I said above, a number of the best students in my program had no prior experience, and a fair number of "experienced" kids flamed out once they hit the non-coding portion of the curriculum.

I went to a small school for undergrad, so I knew everyone who graduated with me, and everyone who started with me. Later, I went to a very large graduate school, and while the same patterns seemed to hold, I can't say for sure.

Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by araneae on Sunday January 16, 2011 @10:32PM (#2111101)
Right, but we're talking about the "weed-out" class effect here. If the girls get weeded out in 101 whatever happens later isn't relevant.
Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by lelele on Monday January 17, 2011 @09:09AM (#2112150)
> "Something that frustrates me about the field of computer science is that there are a lot of jerks who think that just because they've "mastered" some programming language or know some obscure unix commands, they are gods and you are nothing."

How is the computer field different from other fields? Once they are proficient, some people choose to share their knowledge to let people reach even higher goals, whilst others people enjoy making fun of those less educated and put them down. I've seen such behavior everywhere.

EDIT: Moreover, in the latter case, if you add some ingrained misogyny to the mix, things get even worse.

Re:My Experiences as a Female Software Engineer by wccrawford on Monday January 17, 2011 @06:48AM (#2111899)
When I went to college, I experienced the same. There were quite a few quiet dropouts, but the loud-mouthed ones were more spectacular. Mainly because they'd promise to do something and then fail, leaving the rest of the group hanging.