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Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by RoutinePlayer on Thursday September 19, 2019 @03:45PM (#21019922)
I'm not sure I fully know your stances on all of this, but Religion is not really a prerequisite for fully appreciating how beautiful yet precarious our biosphere truly is.

Engineering solutions to combat or circumvent Climate Change is our ONLY way forward. But first we need to get a critical mass of our American citizenry to be convinced we have an actual problem. Especially, in fact, a large segment of the electorate that's VERY religious and continually refuses to accept the facts about AGW.

I say Americans here because a disproportionate percentage was/is being caused by us, and because we also play a unique place in world affairs.

Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by chaoticmass on Thursday September 19, 2019 @04:23PM (#21020345)
Carl Sagan wrote about the numinous, a feeling of awe from looking at the night sky. Can't remember if it was Cosmos, or Contact, or one of his other books.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numinous

Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by keiferski on Thursday September 19, 2019 @05:46PM (#21021046)
The Sublime is a similar concept from the Romantic era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_(philosophy)

Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by monktastic1 on Thursday September 19, 2019 @04:08PM (#21020188)
I agree that religion (especially as it is conceived today) is not the answer.

I also agree that engineering will be required. When I said "merely engineer," I meant that engineering cannot be a replacement for our awakening to the "miracle," but must be used in service of it.

Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by Feuilles_Mortes on Thursday September 19, 2019 @04:01PM (#21020112)
> Engineering solutions to combat or circumvent Climate Change is our ONLY way forward.

I think that this perspective ignores the environmental problems inherent in a capitalist mode of production, and in fact plays into them.

I think that a political revolution could be imminent, and I would urge those concerned about the future of life on this planet to consider alternative modes of economics.

Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by coliveira on Thursday September 19, 2019 @04:06PM (#21020166)
Capitalism is based on infinite growth (economists even laugh at people like Malthus who proposed otherwise) and on fungibility of values (money is green no matter where from). This basically leads to a necessity of destroying nature for the sake of realizing economic growth. We need at least start to take seriously the fact that, the way capitalist economy is conducted, there is no way forward to save the environment.
Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by RoutinePlayer on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:51PM (#21022614)
What form of "Capitalism"? The unfettered type that sits all the way to the right of the spectrum (that does't exist, because it would only last a few hours), or the overly regulated one all the way on the left of the spectrum?
Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by lacampbell on Thursday September 19, 2019 @04:28PM (#21020401)
By that logic, capitalism leads to a necessity of murdering your business rivals for the sake of realizing growth.
Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by coliveira on Thursday September 19, 2019 @04:49PM (#21020603)
Capitalism happens inside a framework of laws. There are strong laws against murdering your competitors, that's why this doesn't happen (nowadays). There is a whole set of unethical behaviors, however, that are commonly used for the goal of producing a profit.
Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by incompatible on Thursday September 19, 2019 @05:50PM (#21021071)
The laws are not generally part of capitalism, but imposed upon it to prevent various harmful activities. Pollution is an example: capitalism itself (the private ownership of the means of production) has no mechanism that could deal with it.
Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by lacampbell on Thursday September 19, 2019 @05:59PM (#21021138)
It absolutely has a mechanism - property damage

the private ownership of the means of production

Is there any reason you're using marxist terminology?

Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by owenmarshall on Thursday September 19, 2019 @07:32PM (#21021788)
Pollution is nothing more than a negative externality.

People have measurably shorter lifespans due to coal emissions. We aren’t doing anything about that, so why do you think property will be treated any differently?

Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by incompatible on Thursday September 19, 2019 @07:13PM (#21021670)
Property damage is a consequence, not a method of prevention? The damage won't necessarily happen at the place of origination.

I'm not sure why you say it's Marxist terminology. It's more or less what Wikipedia uses. Is there another definition that you'd prefer?

Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by lacampbell on Thursday September 19, 2019 @05:50PM (#21021073)
What's your argument? You've so far told mecapitalism leads to terrible things happening in the name of growth unless there are laws against it, which there are, as 'capitalism exists inside a framework of laws'. Your own argument informs us that capitalism does not automatically mean environmental damage will occur.
[dead]
Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by the_af on Thursday September 19, 2019 @05:12PM (#21020810)
> That explains the sparkling environmental record of the USSR and China!

If you assume that capitalism requires unchecked growth harmful to the environment, it doesn't follow that some specific alternatives to capitalism are automatically healthy for the environment. The only conclusion you can draw (if the initial proposition is true) is that if there is a healthy alternative, it's not capitalism.

By the way, some people believe China is currently practicing a form of "state capitalism" (regardless of what they call it, which by the way seems to be "socialist market economy").

Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by RootKitBeerCat on Thursday September 19, 2019 @05:36PM (#21020973)
Things get overcomplicated when we start using capital “C” words like Communism/Capitalism.

The basics are enough: unchecked greed is bad, regardless of the society / system of capital allocation and thought.

Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by lacampbell on Thursday September 19, 2019 @05:52PM (#21021084)
Whenever people talk about 'capitalism' like this it's usually a communist dog whistle. Otherwise they would talk about specific issues, not "the system is making us do it maaan".
Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by coliveira on Thursday September 19, 2019 @10:11PM (#21022702)
So you are the one assuming that after the end of capitalism only communism is possible...
Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by davinic on Thursday September 19, 2019 @04:10PM (#21020215)
I disagree. One could change the capitalist model to account and be liable for all externalities and to tax/penalize those firms/countries who refuse to.
Re:Birds Are Vanishing from North America by RoutinePlayer on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:47PM (#21022593)
Right. Something along those lines is what we should be striving for.