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Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by ncmncm on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @09:08PM (#21012218)
In "Debt" by John Graeber, I was astonished to learn that currency was invented more than 2000 years after money. It was a military logistics invention: soldiers were issued coins, and taxes collected in coins, so that to be able to pay taxes, the governed had to meet the material needs or other wants of soldiers.

The metal value of the coins only mattered for trade with foreigners.

Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by ryacko on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @10:42PM (#21012753)
According to Wikipedia, Gresham’s Law was noticed since the 5th Century BC. The metal value of coins mattered for everyone, partly because reducing the purity of coins would result in the mint being able to effect an increase in the money supply.
Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by earthboundkid on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:09AM (#21015781)
_David_ Graeber. Great book. I recommend it to everyone.

It makes sense that in a village you'd have standing relationships so you wouldn't need to actually pass currency back and forth.

Even in 19th c. Russian novels you'd have the butcher and the baker coming a few times a year to ask for the debts to be settled, but for most of the time you'd just buy things on credit and have it marked on your tab for later payment. The big change in the mid-20th c. was that now there was one system of credit cards that are accepted everywhere instead of many small systems of credit with each particular merchant.

Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by ryacko on Thursday September 19, 2019 @11:36AM (#21017193)
It would make sense in a society where taxes can be paid in kind that currency wouldn’t need to be passed back and forth.
Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by WizardAustralis on Thursday September 19, 2019 @05:18AM (#21014584)
Just a quick correction. The book is 'Debt : the First 5,000 years' by DAVID Graeber.
Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by ncmncm on Thursday September 19, 2019 @01:52PM (#21018702)
I always get that wrong. You'd think I could learn, but the book is so much more interesting.
Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by ncmncm on Thursday September 19, 2019 @01:54PM (#21018715)
The book is available free online, as a PDF, but it is probably smarter to buy the paper one, and use the PDF just for searching.
Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by knocte on Thursday September 19, 2019 @01:37AM (#21013578)
But still, the way to inflate these coins (i.e. devalue them) was to include less and less precious metals in the material used to produce them. (There is a mention about this in the great TNW talk by Stefan Molyneux: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9cAXh1QAW0 )
Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by dredmorbius on Thursday September 19, 2019 @02:40PM (#21019195)
Molyneux is at best an idiot, and at worst, a white nationalist neofascist.

A libertarian internet commentator and alleged cult leader who amplifies "scientific racism," eugenics and white supremacism to a massive new audience, Stefan Molyneux operates within the racist so-called “alt-right” and pro-Trump ranks.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/indi...

That aside, his economic doctrines are at best a random splatter pattern. There are vastly better uses of your time and attention.

Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by knocte on Friday September 20, 2019 @02:53AM (#21023872)
I indeed hate some of his content, but that talk is great. Otherwise you're doing a strawman.
[dead]
Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by thinkingemote on Thursday September 19, 2019 @08:34AM (#21015540)
Godwin's law or actually so?

I remember when trump was running the first time, many respected users of hacker news advocated for the suspension of Godwin's law because "this time he's actually a nazi"

Figuratively Vs literally goes out the window if emotions run high.

It's ironic because that is "literally" what Godwin's law is about.

Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by dredmorbius on Thursday September 19, 2019 @02:34PM (#21019137)
Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by littlestymaar on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:43AM (#21016059)
Interestingly enough, I didn't write “litteraly” but “basically”. You are attacking a strawman here("figuratively" so ;).

And you probably should check what's Godwin's law again. Godwin had nothing against calling Nazis Nazis. If I say “Anders Breivik and Brenton Tarrent are Nazis” do you have a problem with that too because they don't have their Nazi parti membership card? Maybe we should stop calling Hitler “fascist” because he didn't belong to the Italian Fascist party either…

Stefan Molyneux writes and talks about the superiority of the “white” race, believed that there's a conspiracy to erase it from earth (the white genocide stuff) and that something (guess what…) must be done to stop it. If that doesn't count as Nazi in your book, I am sorry.

Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by ralfd on Thursday September 19, 2019 @03:26AM (#21014090)
What is the difference between money and currency?
Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by Someone on Thursday September 19, 2019 @03:43AM (#21014179)
“Money” is the abstract concept that allows one to do accounting “X owns me M money”, rather than “X owns me 3 cows and 4 sheep, but I own him 2 days of work”.

“Currency” is where one has (small, most of the time) tokens that represent money. The material used in such tokens can be worth the money it represents, as historically in gold and silver coins, but it need not, as in banknotes.

Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by earthboundkid on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:13AM (#21015807)
Also you can steal currency. At this very moment, I owe $8 to my friend because she bought me a drink last night. It is not possible for anyone to steal that $8 because it's a purely relational construct: I and she both know that I owe her $8. I can default, thereby deprive my friend what she's owed, but no third party can swoop in and take the money away from her. But in contrast, you can steal 8 $1 bills quite easily.
Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by dredmorbius on Thursday September 19, 2019 @03:52PM (#21019998)
Arguably, the distinction made in the parent comment is a poor one. It's more accurate to say that debt predates money in the form of either coin or other forms of currency such as banknotes, checks, or (somewhat understandably) computerised transfers.

Money is seen as having four principle functions:[1]

1. A medium of exchange.

2. A unit of account.

3. A store of value.

4. Sometimes, a standard of deferred payment.

Function 1 is currency. Function 2 is value. Function 3 is as an asset. Function 4 is debt.

Note that debt also needs to have some sense of value, and that effective debt-management systems tend to rely on a stable metric of value.

William Stanley Jevons writing in Money and the Mechanism of Exchange (1875)[2] gives seven qualities of the material of money: utility/value, portability, indestructibility, homogeneity, divisibility, stability, and cognizability.

By utility, he holds that money must have an intrinsic value of itself. Given the existence of nominal coinage and fiat currencies, this is clearly false.

By portability, that money is easily transported and exchanged, unlike other assets, say, land.

By homogeneity, that any given unit of money is equally exchangeable for another. It doesn't matter what dollar, euro, yen, or mark you have, only how many.

By indestructibility, somewhat relaxed, that money not be easily or spontaneously degraded. Volatile or uncontainable forms of assets are not suitable for money.

By divisibility, that the units of money be either subject to division or multiplication. Unlike, say, a Great Masters artwork, which has value, is portable, and is reasonably durable, but whose value does not survive its being cut into pieces. Contrast a dollar which can be subdivided into pennies, or aggregated to a $100 banknote.

By stability, that the value is reasonably uniform over time. As with utility, this seems not strictly true.

By cognizability, that money is immediately and universally recognisable as money. Note that this argues against certain suggested money alternatives, such as bitcoin, which literally requires a planet-wide network of extraordinarily expensive computations to be computed to "cognize" any given transaction.

The history of debt and money shows numerous forms, including "gift cultures" (generally for small tribes), grain accounts (early cities), numerous commodities (metals, stones, beads, glass, beaver pelts, oyster shells, cattle, cattle hides, and more. (Many of these origins show up in slang terms for money.) Virtually all currencies have or had names suggesting either weight, divisibility, quality, domain of relevance (typically country), or some indicator of quality, of coinage: pound, shekel, dinar, dollar, mark, royal, florin, ruble, afghani, and many more.[3]

Examples of currencies not representing government-issued coin (or other demarcations) are commonplace, and range from other governments' currency (as in US dollar trade or black markets outside the US, or use of Spanish Reals in colonial America and the early US) to former governments' currency (Roman coinage being used long after the fall of the Roman Empire), to commodity currencies based on raw materials (such as beaver pelts and oyster shells) to manufactured products such as cigarettes. A classic example of the last is given in "The Economic Organisation of a P.O.W. Camp", by Richard Radford, describing the cigarette-based economy of a German WWII camp.

My own view is that money (or debt) is information, specifically socially recognised recognition of obligations, and in its manifestations, tokenised money represents some credible expression of that obligation. In form, then, money is whatever commodity forms the most universally acceptable and available medium of exchange within a given exchange network. This might be a government-issued coinage, but can be something else. The classic functions and Jevons' list of qualities are not absolutes, and there can be considerable trade-offs amongst these.

An element explicitly mentioned in either the four functions or Jevons lists is trust evidenced in money. In tightly-knit tribal structures, the trust is manifest and tokenisation is not required. Credits and debits are known, disputes are readily settled, and explicit tokenisation is not required, so money does not exist. In early cities, grain and other commodities served as both principle exchanged goods, and principle units of value, and an accounting system with an annual cycle functioned relatively well. As trade and exchange expanded in both goods, distance, and numbers of participants, an explicit tokenisation was required, and uniform assets with concentrated stable value and assayable quality (mostly precious metals) emerged. The notion of seigniorage, a premium paid for coinage based on its minting, above the specie metal contained within it, is a measure of trust in the mint. Paper, fiat, and non-work-factor digital currencies have effectively infinite seigniorage -- there is no intrinsic value, instead the value is in the trust of institutions and systems of account.

NB: This may be a minority view of one.

________________________________

Notes:

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money#functions

2. https://archive.org/stream/moneyexchange00jevorich#page/n7/m...

3. For a list of currencies, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_currencies Etymologies may be traced via the online etymological dictionary, https://www.etymonline.com/

4. See https://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/frances-woolley-t... Original paper: http://www.simon-davies.org.uk/Radford_1945_POWCamp.pdf

Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by KevinKallmes on Friday September 20, 2019 @01:48AM (#21023619)
Hi! I was the author of the original article, and I think your description here is extremely interesting. I have often called money a communication of social trust, but the information exchange on obligation is also an excellent conception (on top of a great run through the qualities of money). Would you mind if I repost your comment on the original blog?
Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by dredmorbius on Friday September 20, 2019 @04:04PM (#21030666)
I need to correct some flubs.

Email me at username via Protonmail.

Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by dredmorbius on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:47PM (#21022592)
The POW Camp PDF link has apparrently rotted:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120522212001/www.simon-davies....

Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by dredmorbius on Friday September 20, 2019 @04:12AM (#21024313)
Correction: an element not explicitly mentioned in either the four functions or Jevons list...
Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by gamblor956 on Thursday September 19, 2019 @10:49AM (#21016687)
In previous threads when this book has been mentioned, it's always followed by numerous comments about the many things the book gets wrong, largely because the book tried to force history into the framework of the author's political ideology.
Re:Hyperinflation and Trust in Ancient Rome by dredmorbius on Thursday September 19, 2019 @02:32PM (#21019109)
Specifics would be useful. Either criticisms, or links to same.