News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by tyingq on Sunday September 15, 2019 @08:38AM (#20976956)
"Although I’m sure the precise problem set could be replicated with commodity hardware too"

Only pretty recently. You would be surprised at the number of crazy smart people that failed to make a commercially viable TPF replacement.

Including ITA, whom Google bought for ~$700M. Lots of top talent, lots of funding. They did build a reservation system, but nobody of note would use it.

Amadeus only got rid of their TPF mainframes in the last year or so. As far as I know, Sabre hasn't finished.

I don't know what progress VISA has made (another heavy TPF user). They are still hiring TPF programmers: https://usa.visa.com/careers/job-details.jobid.7439996782301...

Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by selectodude on Sunday September 15, 2019 @09:01AM (#20977029)
Even if these IBM mainframes are $10 million each, its such a rounding error in terms of cost that I can’t think of a good reason to migrate off of them. What does commodity hardware add other than complexity?
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by tyingq on Sunday September 15, 2019 @09:04AM (#20977038)
Mostly a platform you can find programmers for. I believe that's really the main driver. If you have business logic in TPF, you need TPF literate 360 Assembler developers. Technically, you can program in C, but legacy integration and performance issues make that of limited use.

People moving away usually tried to extract the business logic such that the TPF layer was mostly a distributed NoSQL store. That bought a lot of time, but it seems like the skill shortage is now hitting that layer.

Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by toast0 on Sunday September 15, 2019 @10:55AM (#20977446)
The migration itself may be valuable, if treated properly. Many airlines have had very public issues when their mainframe had problems running (often power issues, but sometimes other things); a migration to x86 includes accepting and handling more failures, which may include having a warm second site available.

You can certainly have a warm second mainframe too, and I think most large banks are run that way, but it wouldn't be very fashionable to add that to your airline now, if it wasn't already there.

Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by tyingq on Sunday September 15, 2019 @10:58AM (#20977468)
TPF is inherently hot/hot, distributed across many mainframes. It's very different from z/OS.
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by coder543 on Sunday September 15, 2019 @09:07AM (#20977047)
I would have asked the opposite question: what does mainframe add other than complexity?

It's a lot easier to find good engineers to write and maintain software for Linux on x86-64 than it is to find mainframe engineers, which makes things simpler, arguably.

Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by TheOtherHobbes on Sunday September 15, 2019 @09:22AM (#20977086)
A mainframe adds reliability and backward compatibility, and the knowledge that you don't have to rewrite your systems from the ground up.

How long is Linux on x86-64 going to stay a thing? What are you going to do about staging Linux updates on business-critical facilities?

Perhaps not so simple after all.

Which suggests an interesting contrarian career path - train on COBOL + mainframe you'll never lack well-paid work. You'll also avoid the usual fad tracking.

Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by neverartful on Sunday September 15, 2019 @11:37AM (#20977688)
Your idea is logical, but it's not exactly that way in practice. Many (most?) of the mainframe jobs are not that well-paid (for software industry). The other thing is that it nearly limits you to working in banking, airlines, government, insurance.
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by coder543 on Sunday September 15, 2019 @09:30AM (#20977113)
> A mainframe adds reliability and backward compatibility

Citation needed, especially on that implication that x86-64 lacks reliability.

I’ve run reliable services on commodity hardware that literally processed over 5 billion transactions per day.

> How long is Linux on x86-64 going to stay a thing?

If something better comes along, why wouldn’t you want to move to it? But “better” in this context would imply popular support and plentiful access to developers, so you would have years of warning. It wouldn’t come as a surprise. As of now, it has been going for at least a decade, and shows no signs of stopping.

> What are you going to do about staging Linux updates on business-critical facilities?

This is not some huge, unsolved problem. It has been solved many times, in my opinion, so just learn how others do it and follow suit. I’m not here to teach sysadmin “tips and tricks.”

I would be completely clueless on how to stage updates for a mainframe. Turn it off and back on? And I’m betting all of the good training material there is locked behind expensive paywalls.

> Perhaps not so simple after all.

Disagree, especially since you can hire people to solve these problems for a lot less money than you can get just the hardware for a mainframe, let alone hire the extremely rare (read: expensive) personnel needed to maintain and develop applications for mainframe.

If IBM would focus on bringing the entry-level cost of mainframe down, they would probably be able to get more adoption, and more people would be able and motivated to learn their systems.

Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by tyingq on Sunday September 15, 2019 @09:38AM (#20977139)
"Citation needed, especially on that implication that x86-64 lacks reliability."

Basically, the hardware and software on a mainframe does it for you. Versus having to implement redundancy and resilience into your app. You can pull a CPU on a running mainframe, and it keeps chugging. Batch failures, app failures, etc, have a very well defined ecosystem for recovery that's consistent across apps.

As you imply, though, provided you pick the right software, there's not much difference in reliability these days. The variety of software choices is what kills reliability on x86/Linux. Too little established experience because there's too many choices.

Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by selectodude on Sunday September 15, 2019 @10:32AM (#20977365)
I think it’s become an incredibly small and important niche, and that’s ok. It’s not broken, doesn’t need to be fixed, and compared to other costs spending $100mm/yr on COBOL programmers and mainframes isn’t going to destroy their business. It’s highly specialized stuff. It has a proven track record of working very well. Switching off of it will cause a lot more headaches than it will fix.
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by abtinf on Sunday September 15, 2019 @10:29AM (#20977356)
Virtually every sentence of your comment demonstrates snobby ignorance. You treat your erroneous assumptions as fact and build a house of cards on top.
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by rbanffy on Sunday September 15, 2019 @04:57PM (#20979451)
> what does mainframe add other than complexity?

Compared to what? A cluster of x86 computers where all the security, cryptography, observability, reliability, availability has to be written by the owner on top of something like Kubernetes? And that can achieve the kind of throughput a mainframe has?

I'd say a mainframe is much simpler than that. It's already done. All you need to do is to sign the check and read the (hundreds of) manuals.

Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by neverartful on Sunday September 15, 2019 @11:33AM (#20977669)
It adds one throat to choke. You won't have separate vendors for the OS and the hardware to point fingers at each other. In the case of the mainframe, there's usually a whole raft of other software that's all from IBM to add to the one throat to choke: TPF, z/OS, z/VM, CICS, DB2, etc.
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by cat199 on Sunday September 15, 2019 @05:45PM (#20979660)
> mainframe add

if it's already in place, it's not 'adding' anything, it simply 'is'.

Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by mruts on Sunday September 15, 2019 @09:29AM (#20977108)
According to Wikipedia it seems like a lot of people use or used ITA: “This system has been and is used by travel companies such as Bing Travel, CheapTickets, Kayak.com, and Orbitz, and by airlines such as Alitalia, American, ANA, Cape Air, Delta Air Lines, United Airlines, US Airways, and Virgin Atlantic.”
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by tyingq on Sunday September 15, 2019 @09:33AM (#20977118)
That's the shopping engine, which was successful, but only a small subset of what a TPF reservation system does...albeit one of the more complex pieces.

ITA did build the full thing, but only Cape Air used it. The "full thing" being shopping, schedules, inventory, booking, cancel, change, check-in, etc.

Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by bogomipz on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:45PM (#20978093)
Oh interesting so ITA is really just a retail front-end for TPF then? I guess I was misinformed about it as well.
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by tyingq on Sunday September 15, 2019 @01:04PM (#20978196)
The customers shop using ITA. The ITA shopping engine gets schedules, inventory and updates inventory from/to the backend (often TPF).

The shopping engine itself isn't trivial. ITA has the best shopping engine available.

Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by mruts on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:50PM (#20978129)
I was under the impression that ITA used exclusively Common Lisp to inplement their software. I could be wrong, though.
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by lispm on Sunday September 15, 2019 @03:25PM (#20979007)
Other parts were written other languages. ITA also used languages like C++ (reported to be roughly 50% of the line count for QPX) and Java (for RES).
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by bogomipz on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:27PM (#20977953)
Is TPF running on Linux on commodity X86 now then? Is that also the eventual plan for Sabre?
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by tyingq on Sunday September 15, 2019 @01:02PM (#20978184)
They slowly moved the business logic out of TPF ASM to x86 app servers, which left the TPF machines as mostly distributed NoSQL servers. Then they replaced that layer with Couchbase or similar. Took 15 years or so.
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by monocasa on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:32PM (#20977990)
TPF itself, and the programs written in it are mainly in s/360 asm, so I doubt very much it's running on x86 now. It's so s/360 it doesn't have traditional stacks.
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by bogomipz on Sunday September 15, 2019 @01:34PM (#20978358)
Is there a way to reconcile these two above responses? They seem to be very different answers. Are these both options that a customer can choose from?
Re:IBM introduces z15 mainframe by monocasa on Sunday September 15, 2019 @05:55PM (#20979703)
Yeah, it sounds like they rewrote it piece by piece to run on different architectures.

Really similar to having a big monolith, and taking pieces out chunk by chunk rewritten to run as microservices until you're left with a new codebase with no sign of the original monolith or any of it's code.