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Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by ctdonath on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:15PM (#20963433)
Greta is a child being used for propaganda. This is wrong.
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by atoav on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:25PM (#20963531)
So the child that out of her own will started to strike for climate awareness is beeing used?

I didn’t follow every nook and crany of her story, but I didn’t see her promoting anything that a rational objective observer should also conclude.

What I did see, were a big amount of butthurt middle aged men who couldn’t handle what a girl telling them the truth does to their own self image. And instead of using this as a chance to groe as a person they start to rationalize their behaviour in ways which are uncompatible with the reality.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by marpstar on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:30PM (#20963579)
> out of her own will

citation needed. the fact that this girl has been launched into stardom practically overnight is a sign that she's not "in charge".

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by atoav on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:58PM (#20963919)
I remember there beeing school strikes in Germany inspired by her well before she was a topic in the national media landscape. The Germans school kids who followed her example saw it on social media mostly. Only once it was clear that that school striking swedish girl inspired a whole lot of others throughout Europe, the (German) media picked up. I remember thinking that is was a tiny bit late.

This wouldn't be extraordinary. Your claim however is. And you know the drill: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Especially when you use that claim in an ad hominem attack to silence someones arguments.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by seppin on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:37PM (#20963656)
> the fact that this girl has been launched into stardom practically overnight is a sign that she's not "in charge"

Why?

[dead]
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by carlisle_ on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:50PM (#20963831)
Did you seriously just try to equivocate climate change and child pornography?
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by vogre on Friday September 13, 2019 @01:16PM (#20964143)
I try to equivocate political activism and pornography. Both are quite acceptable when actor is adult and can spell consent. Bringing children to that area raises questions.
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by carlisle_ on Friday September 13, 2019 @01:57PM (#20964580)
That's quite possibly the most overreaching analogy I've seen. Your entire argument is disingenuous and is meant to provoke an emotional response. It's also just wrong.
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by Romanulus on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:41PM (#20963718)
This spurns an interesting question: When is something of your own free will?

Disregard the subject matter for a moment, if you will, but if someone has been subtly indoctrinated enough (or a madman is fully convicted in his beliefs), are they truly their own?

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by atoav on Friday September 13, 2019 @01:04PM (#20964008)
In principle you are asking a good question here, but what fascinates me much more on this topic is just how allergic some people react given the idea that a 16 year old girl could question their morality.

Because this is what it always boils down to: figures like her act as a mirror and many people don't like what they see in it. And it is easier to attack the mirror than dealing with what it tells you.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by Romanulus on Friday September 13, 2019 @06:45PM (#20967422)
She hasn't questioned my morality, though.

I suspect most siding with her would stop once they actually need to carve into their own way of life. I've seen many environmentalist types care about the environment so long as it is not directly impacting theirs... It makes it easy to evangelize while being on the absolute upper crust of humanity.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by DuskStar on Friday September 13, 2019 @02:24PM (#20964880)
Well, here's a different side of the coin - how many 16 year old suicide bombers are doing that of their own free will? Could a system of beliefs expected to lead to that end state be called 'indoctrination'?
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by Romanulus on Saturday September 14, 2019 @01:09AM (#20969021)
That's exactly my point.
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by Torok on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:19PM (#20963474)
She's a 16 year old who's chosen to make this her life cause I'd hardly say she's being used
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by gnusty_gnurc on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:54PM (#20963885)
"chosen" as though she probably doesn't come from a position of privilege and left-leaning parents
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by lazyguy2 on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:24PM (#20963526)
It's a safe assumption nowadays. People using children for propaganda is extremely common.

If she was a 45 year old accountant trying to take a stand on climate change I don't think she would be trotted out like this.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by atoav on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:31PM (#20963597)
> If she was a 45 year old accountant trying to take a stand on climate change I don't think she would be trotted out like this.

Because she inspired many other kids her age to start speaking up and do something. I can clearly remember when I was 16 and started to realize how bad the grown ups were actually at implementing all these things they thought me I should value. Starts with democracy and goes to environmentalism.

On a symbolic level she represents the generations who will get the blunt of it. The generations that will have to battle all of that mess the generations before them created.

I don't really see, why her decision to use that publicity should be any kind of valid critizism really, unless it is meant to be an ad hominem attack to avoid talking about the topic.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by andrepd on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:34PM (#20963627)
No, it's particularly striking that a high-school age girl has taken the initiative to start such large protests and raise awareness about the issue and about the fact that something needs to be done yesterday. More generally, we find young people protesting and taking action against irresponsible, greedy, amoral "45-year olds" (as you put it) that yield the power and use it to enrich themselves at the cost of a trashed planet for the next generation.

I think it's pretty obvious what the message here is: the (older) politicians and business men are incompetent or corrupt, the powerless youngsters are showing themselves to be infinitely more responsible. It's a striking image.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by vvanders on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:29PM (#20963572)
A 45 year old accountant may not have to face the same impact of climate change as someone who's ~30 years younger.

I'm not shocked that someone from a younger generation is worried about the long term impacts of climate change and how it may change their future.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by tempguy9999 on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:31PM (#20963596)
It would be wrong if it was true.
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by TomMarius on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:17PM (#20963454)
Why do you think so? Who and how is using her, for what benefit?
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by throwaway744678 on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:24PM (#20963524)
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by homonculus1 on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:43PM (#20963733)
She is clearly a plant with handlers, institutional backing, and media favor. Children do not simply fall into the international spotlight, she is being heavily groomed, boosted, and prompted by public relations agents.

Climate activism is one of the more noble purposes for using children as mouthpieces, of course, it's not like she's a pawn of some nefarious shadow group, but for some of us it still leaves a bad taste. And being that she is a mouthpiece, it seems like a collective delusion that she's discussed like some kind of key actor.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by atoav on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:48PM (#20963797)
Please don't forget that her school strike "fridays for future" sparked a whole movement of people her age (across europe) well before she got big in the media, a movement which since then produced many other people stepping in like "scientists for future" etc.

If you spark something like that and act like the symbol of the betrayed next generation, media support is the best thing you can wish for.

So rather than portraying this as something that is beeing done to her, I'd argue that she is entirely on board with the whole thing and more reflected about it than we give her credit for.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by homonculus1 on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:58PM (#20963921)
According to her Wikipedia a group called Fossil Free Dalsland contacted her first and suggested the school strike. Then another group called We Don't Have Time broadcast photographs to a wide online audience. Her strike was literally created by activist and media organizations, she is no more than a child spokesman for a viral marketing campaign.

Like I said, it is a collective delusion where you have to buy into every facet, including the messianic self-made image, or you hate little girls and the environment.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by atoav on Friday September 13, 2019 @01:46PM (#20964459)
She got the attention of Aftonbladdet¹ because she protested on the first day of school after the holidays in front of the Swedish parliament, which is in itself something that any newspaper would have picked up – especially because it was in the midst of an pan-european heatwave which in many places resulted in the highest temperatures of the century.

Her own words on this are far more interesting: https://www.facebook.com/gretathunbergsweden/posts/recently-...

¹:https://www.aftonbladet.se/svenskahjaltar/a/G1AL4q/greta-15-...

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by homonculus1 on Friday September 13, 2019 @01:55PM (#20964566)
Okay and? We all know she is a media darling. She's also been guided by professionals since the very beginning.
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by atoav on Friday September 13, 2019 @02:41PM (#20965070)
> We all know she is a media darling.

So what do you suggest? Bright spotlights and a hard chair? A smoking interviewer with a deep voice who makes her regret she even dared to start thinking about the whole thing?

For me Greta Thunberg is mostly a moral figure. Somebody who convincingly claims they have a stake in the message they carry. This is the reason why I am not that much interested in her – I don't really need any convincing on that topic.

And because she is a moral figure, everything starts to make a lot more sense when you see the whole Pro- and Anti-Greta followership through a moralistic lense. The former ones are the ones who needed her push to stand up or who feel they have to defend her and the latter ones feel their own moral self image threatened because there comes a child who tells them they are not as good as a person as they thought they were. And when somebody tells you that, attacking their character is _always_ easier than changing your view of the world and your place in it. It is quite predictable in it's entirety, but that makes it fascinating in my eyes.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by homonculus1 on Friday September 13, 2019 @03:10PM (#20965336)
Exactly that moralistic viewpoint powers the nonsense I'm talking about. I think it's creepy that faceless actors are using a child to push a message, but she is a focal point for Good Morals.

The official narrative is that she is a precocious lone wolf climate crusader social prodigy, which is useful to the entrenched activists handling her because it saves them all the work of scientifically refuting climate deniers; now they can be simply painted as bullies. But because she is a moral icon, even pointing out the institutional backing behind her viral status is a form of heresy.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by atoav on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:04PM (#20966536)
Tbh I think the truth is somewhere in between and much more complicated than it is usally painted especially in the anglosphere (which has turned extremely tribal in the UK and US over the past decade).

She apparently got her first contact with climate groups through a writing contest where she wrote on climate change/climate politics, so her motivation was prexisting. Whether they use her or she used them (or it was some kind of symbiosis or a cold blooded deal) would be hard to quantify objectively, especially if she has similar political goals than her, so I'd be careful with assumptions, especially if they make you sound like you go for an ad hominem attack. I remember myself als a 16 year old, I was definitly not unpolitical, quite the opposite and manipulating me into supporting something I didn't like would have been quite hard back then, maybe harder even harder than now.

Of course viewing her as a lone wolf is completely nuts and I am quite sure neither herself nor the people who started the school protests in her wake would subscribe to that notion (at least I heard it beeing discussed by some Fridays for Future kids in Germany). This is obviously a media narrative by journalists who got carried away. On the other hand claiming that she is "pushed around by faceless actors" is also a bit bland. Firstly if these actors weren't faceless but well known they wouldn't have to rely on somebody else to push messages out, secondly I'd argue that this symbolic action is far better than the alternative (something like flying drones over Heathrow Airport to get media attention), thirdly if "faceless actors" in the background worry you, there are much much better targets to attack (e.g. the UK prime minister, industry lobbyists in the US, etc.)

The topics she is speaking onare certainly not the ones that have a incredibly powerful lobby behind it (in terms on lobbying money spent), so if we speak of "creepy faceless actors" behind her, you can assume the actors on the opposite site are tenfold as creepy and faceless, certainly profit from discrediting the person and there is historical evidence that they exist, profit from it and use their influence.

All that aside. The future generations have a valid moral argument. We have known about global warming since half a century and did nothing – the opposite, in the wake of neoliberalism that followed the fall of the soviet union we made everything even more about profits than before. And now we are like that procrastinating kid that pushed homework away and tries to do it while the steps of the approaching teacher echo through the hallway: the only way to get out of this seems to break our own hand to be sent of to the nurse. From an outside perspective this is totally irrational behaviour unless there is proof that the reality looks different altogether. But there is no such proof, which is why the persons are attacked instead of their ideas. Not liking somebodies moral standpoint is a very weak defense when they stand for the wellbeing of many future generations and the survival of mankind.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by jacobush on Friday September 13, 2019 @01:52PM (#20964528)
I am experimenting with a strange thing - keeping two thoughts in my head at the same time. Maybe Greta is both honest and promoted by We Don't Have Time et al. Hm, head did not explode.

Edit: that was just a stupid thing to say. Sorry, you didn't claim she is dishonest.

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by homonculus1 on Friday September 13, 2019 @01:57PM (#20964583)
If you want to make such condescending remarks then please point to anywhere I claimed that Greta Thunberg is dishonest.
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by whydoyoucare on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:23PM (#20963512)
She is parroting ideas that the scientifically-inclined minds fed her. I am not sure if she understands everything she talked about (given her age). Using kids to sell ideas is "being used".
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by rapind on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:25PM (#20963532)
Oh those terrible scientists brainwashing our kids. Something must be done.
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by whydoyoucare on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:57PM (#20967034)
For a start, teach kids to think critically and reject anything that is shoved down their throats as "the truth". Science and religion included. ;-)
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by andrepd on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:30PM (#20963585)
>She is parroting ideas that the scientifically-inclined minds fed her.

Is this satire or am I missing something here?

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by TomMarius on Friday September 13, 2019 @12:59PM (#20963938)
Eh, saying the truth is selling ideas? I had a software consulting company when I was 16, I am sure she understands.
Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by whydoyoucare on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:55PM (#20967011)
Per my understanding, climate-science is not yet settled, with varying and wide-ranging opinions among scientists. I certainly do not want politicians to take "urgent" actions based on incomplete data and evidence, since any such action is bound to have long-term problematic consqeuences to my wallet.

Greta is a smart kid, no denying that. However, I still believe she parrots a lot of information that she may not understand fully and is being used as a lobbying-tool to enact legislation. That, I have a problem with!

Re:Greta Thunberg has done her science homework by TomMarius on Saturday September 14, 2019 @04:32AM (#20969586)
I can agree that what she says is used by others to promote their campaigns. Not her fault IMHO, though. I think she says reasonable things that are well researched, she doesn't talk about unsure thing; she mostly talks about the factual state of the world and demands answers and doesn't dictate solutions or what kind of action should be taken.