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Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by jerf on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @09:19AM (#20876902)
Cell phones are just great for having with you everywhere. You're out and about and kids are doing something cute at the playground you want to remember? You don't need a $5,000 camera back at home, you need something with you now.

But almost any dedicated camera that isn't down in the complete crap price range will blow a cell phone out of the water, for two major reasons. First, optical zoom, the number one thing I miss with my cell phone. Second, it is at least somewhat more likely that your "12MP camera" really is 12 MP with your real camera, whereas it's fairly likely you "12MP" cell phone is a lie [1].

This is even in the $150/200 range, long before we get to the ability to change lenses or all those other pro features. My ~$200 camera from 10+ years ago still takes better pictures than my cell phone, because even though my cell phone nominally beats it on megapixels, my camera actually uses all of its pixels to obtain real information from the scene, instead of being a bullet-point feature on a device that isn't even primarily a camera.

So, to anyone reading this, if this sounds interesting, you don't even have to go to the big, expensive stuff; my kid literally bought a camera at a garage sale for $5 that also takes better pictures than my cell because it had like 8x optical zoom. It cost me more to find a functional battery than the camera itself did. It's not hard or expensive.

[1]: Test: Take a picture in broad daylight, the best possible lighting conditions. Move the picture to your computer. Zoom in until you can see all the pixels clearly. Can you see sharp edges, or do you see a whole bunch of multi-pixel blobs of the sameish color, even around sharp edges? If the latter, your "pixel count" is a lie; it doesn't actually have that much resolving power.

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by loxs on Thursday September 05, 2019 @01:57AM (#20884210)
I disagree. My iPhone 7 usually takes better shots than my Canon 800D unless I actually put my photography knowledge to work. I'm scared. It's just better at calculating exposure, aperture and ISO sensitivity than the DSLR. And does great job at post-processing to hide its optical and sensor limitations.

Do iPhone photos look better when zoomed in? Of course not, but they do look better at "normal" scale, which is what counts IMO. And of course this only applies when you shoot "standard" scenes, the DSLR (with lenses) gives you ability to shoot things that the iPhone just can't.

Am I ditching my DSLR? Of course not, but that's only because I'm willing to invest effort in actually taking great photos, which isn't trivial (to me) and is much harder with the iPhone.

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by naravara on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:22AM (#20878011)
>But almost any dedicated camera that isn't down in the complete crap price range will blow a cell phone out of the water, for two major reasons.

I suspect this is probably why you're seeing the sales numbers drop too. The big camera makers have been relying on the cheap units to bring in the money. They're transitioning now to relying on expensive, high end units instead. It's a much smaller addressable market though.

At some point I think it will be largely a professional thing. Eventually the computational photography will look good enough to make up for the space constraints of a phones' lens. But the downside will be that any photo taken with your phone will look kind of samey and be poor at getting fine detail. And having your own camera with manual control options will let people feel more in control of what they're doing.

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by snazz on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @10:01AM (#20877267)
The blobs appear to come from aggressive noise reduction on iOS. I think they’re better if you shoot RAW, which is an option with a third party camera app.
Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by cynicalkane on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @10:13AM (#20877379)
It's not just that. The lens itself doesn't have enough resolving power. When light passes through a tiny aperture, it becomes irreversibly blurred, enough to be detected by the micron-scale pixels in the camera sensor.

Camera phones will try to re-sharpen the image, but some information is always lost. It's especially obvious looking at things with fine detail and sharp edges, like tree leaves against a bright sky.

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by pdpi on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:00AM (#20877780)
"The lens is sufficiently prone to diffraction that you won't get the full value out of the sensor's resolution" is a very different statement from "the sensor's resolution is not really 12MP". Saying "The camera isn't true 12MP" suggests the latter, not the former.
Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by jerf on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:12AM (#20877894)
I deliberately stayed away from claiming a cause in my post, because I don't know the cause. I only know the result of the system as a whole; every cell phone camera I've had in the last 10 years does not actually take pictures at its claimed resolution, even in broad daylight. (I can also say it can't solely be over-aggressive JPG-ification, because the result doesn't match that; the 'blobs' I refer to cross the JPEG DCT boundaries freely. I can't say bad JPEG-ification isn't part of the problem, though.)

I tend to buy last year's midgrade phone because I don't really need the latest and greatest. Maybe the top end really does take the full photos they claim, but that still leaves a lot of cell phones that are lying.

Most of the recent cell phones take perfectly adequate pictures, considering the amazing disadvantages they are laboring under. It's just that if you downsample the pictures to 2 or 4MP, you're basically losing no information.

(There are similar effects with video. The aforementioned 10+ year-old camera I had suffers from this as well. It has a "720P" and a "1080P" video mode, but based on my experimentation, both modes get real video out at about 400-500 "real" lines of vertical quality. I can squeeze either video's source down to that size and when I compare the full screen result to the original, I can find no difference whatsoever. I imagine more modern real cameras probably do a better job here; this thing is pretty old now, obviously.)

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by jacobush on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:15AM (#20877924)
Not very.
Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by yardie on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:02AM (#20877797)
Raw will help with color and exposure, up to a point. But it can't fix focus. You are still reliant on photons hitting a sensor. The more of them you have the more information you can work with. A 8MP camera with 1/2" CCD is going to look a hell of a lot better than a 20MP camera with 1/4" CCD.