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Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by jbellis on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @09:09AM (#20876812)
I accepted the "phones are so good that you don't need a separate camera" conventional wisdom by default. Then I tried a mirrorless aps-c. I'm shocked at how much better its photos are. Yes, the phone is adequate for Instagram but if you view similar photos on a 4k monitor there is a much bigger difference than I expected, even for photos that aren't challenging for the phone (landscapes with plenty of light).

Also, the selfie camera on your phone is probably MUCH lower quality than the main one on the back. Have someone else take your picture instead if you have the option.

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by jerf on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @09:19AM (#20876902)
Cell phones are just great for having with you everywhere. You're out and about and kids are doing something cute at the playground you want to remember? You don't need a $5,000 camera back at home, you need something with you now.

But almost any dedicated camera that isn't down in the complete crap price range will blow a cell phone out of the water, for two major reasons. First, optical zoom, the number one thing I miss with my cell phone. Second, it is at least somewhat more likely that your "12MP camera" really is 12 MP with your real camera, whereas it's fairly likely you "12MP" cell phone is a lie [1].

This is even in the $150/200 range, long before we get to the ability to change lenses or all those other pro features. My ~$200 camera from 10+ years ago still takes better pictures than my cell phone, because even though my cell phone nominally beats it on megapixels, my camera actually uses all of its pixels to obtain real information from the scene, instead of being a bullet-point feature on a device that isn't even primarily a camera.

So, to anyone reading this, if this sounds interesting, you don't even have to go to the big, expensive stuff; my kid literally bought a camera at a garage sale for $5 that also takes better pictures than my cell because it had like 8x optical zoom. It cost me more to find a functional battery than the camera itself did. It's not hard or expensive.

[1]: Test: Take a picture in broad daylight, the best possible lighting conditions. Move the picture to your computer. Zoom in until you can see all the pixels clearly. Can you see sharp edges, or do you see a whole bunch of multi-pixel blobs of the sameish color, even around sharp edges? If the latter, your "pixel count" is a lie; it doesn't actually have that much resolving power.

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by loxs on Thursday September 05, 2019 @01:57AM (#20884210)
I disagree. My iPhone 7 usually takes better shots than my Canon 800D unless I actually put my photography knowledge to work. I'm scared. It's just better at calculating exposure, aperture and ISO sensitivity than the DSLR. And does great job at post-processing to hide its optical and sensor limitations.

Do iPhone photos look better when zoomed in? Of course not, but they do look better at "normal" scale, which is what counts IMO. And of course this only applies when you shoot "standard" scenes, the DSLR (with lenses) gives you ability to shoot things that the iPhone just can't.

Am I ditching my DSLR? Of course not, but that's only because I'm willing to invest effort in actually taking great photos, which isn't trivial (to me) and is much harder with the iPhone.

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by naravara on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:22AM (#20878011)
>But almost any dedicated camera that isn't down in the complete crap price range will blow a cell phone out of the water, for two major reasons.

I suspect this is probably why you're seeing the sales numbers drop too. The big camera makers have been relying on the cheap units to bring in the money. They're transitioning now to relying on expensive, high end units instead. It's a much smaller addressable market though.

At some point I think it will be largely a professional thing. Eventually the computational photography will look good enough to make up for the space constraints of a phones' lens. But the downside will be that any photo taken with your phone will look kind of samey and be poor at getting fine detail. And having your own camera with manual control options will let people feel more in control of what they're doing.

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by snazz on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @10:01AM (#20877267)
The blobs appear to come from aggressive noise reduction on iOS. I think they’re better if you shoot RAW, which is an option with a third party camera app.
Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by cynicalkane on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @10:13AM (#20877379)
It's not just that. The lens itself doesn't have enough resolving power. When light passes through a tiny aperture, it becomes irreversibly blurred, enough to be detected by the micron-scale pixels in the camera sensor.

Camera phones will try to re-sharpen the image, but some information is always lost. It's especially obvious looking at things with fine detail and sharp edges, like tree leaves against a bright sky.

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by pdpi on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:00AM (#20877780)
"The lens is sufficiently prone to diffraction that you won't get the full value out of the sensor's resolution" is a very different statement from "the sensor's resolution is not really 12MP". Saying "The camera isn't true 12MP" suggests the latter, not the former.
Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by jerf on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:12AM (#20877894)
I deliberately stayed away from claiming a cause in my post, because I don't know the cause. I only know the result of the system as a whole; every cell phone camera I've had in the last 10 years does not actually take pictures at its claimed resolution, even in broad daylight. (I can also say it can't solely be over-aggressive JPG-ification, because the result doesn't match that; the 'blobs' I refer to cross the JPEG DCT boundaries freely. I can't say bad JPEG-ification isn't part of the problem, though.)

I tend to buy last year's midgrade phone because I don't really need the latest and greatest. Maybe the top end really does take the full photos they claim, but that still leaves a lot of cell phones that are lying.

Most of the recent cell phones take perfectly adequate pictures, considering the amazing disadvantages they are laboring under. It's just that if you downsample the pictures to 2 or 4MP, you're basically losing no information.

(There are similar effects with video. The aforementioned 10+ year-old camera I had suffers from this as well. It has a "720P" and a "1080P" video mode, but based on my experimentation, both modes get real video out at about 400-500 "real" lines of vertical quality. I can squeeze either video's source down to that size and when I compare the full screen result to the original, I can find no difference whatsoever. I imagine more modern real cameras probably do a better job here; this thing is pretty old now, obviously.)

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by jacobush on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:15AM (#20877924)
Not very.
Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by yardie on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:02AM (#20877797)
Raw will help with color and exposure, up to a point. But it can't fix focus. You are still reliant on photons hitting a sensor. The more of them you have the more information you can work with. A 8MP camera with 1/2" CCD is going to look a hell of a lot better than a 20MP camera with 1/4" CCD.
Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by josephdviviano on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @10:04AM (#20877300)
> Yes, the phone is adequate for Instagram but...

Maybe true, but I pretty much only post photos on instagram (using a 5 year old mirrorless camera I found for less than a new good smartphone), and non-experts consistently ask me how I am able to get such high picture quality. So non-photographers can detect the difference between modern smartphones and 5 year old mirrorless tech.

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by abakker on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @01:08PM (#20879194)
my wife focused on her instagram for her jewelry business for a while. it took about 1 day for her to realize that phone photos were totally inadequate for the quality she wanted to deliver. I'd be surprised if any pro instagrammers really used phone photos for the majority of their work.
Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by vr46 on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @01:43PM (#20879581)
Ex-photoj here, I just bought a 2012 Fuji mirrorless for £110 with WiFi to instagram with. Even this area is becoming cheaper to get into. This camera spanks my iPhone XS for photo quality. Now. But give it a couple more generations...
Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by josephdviviano on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @05:28PM (#20881616)
I don't really believe this. One of the major advantages of real cameras is the sensor size. More sensor size gives you more SNR / dynamic range.

All of the tricks used in a smartphone could be used in a real camera. If they were, then real cameras will always have many stops of dynamic range advantage.

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by vr46 on Thursday September 05, 2019 @09:53AM (#20886633)
All technology has constraints, and pictures are made within them. Dynamic range may or may not be an advantage, because there are only so many levels that can be reproduced for the viewer. RGB, for example, only gives you 256 shades of grey. It might mean more options for the photographer, in that you end up with more information in the highlights and shadows, but ultimately the decision to compress one or the other needs to be made if making a black-and-white print (for example) and you end up with the same picture.
Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by josephdviviano on Thursday September 05, 2019 @09:37PM (#20892251)
if you have more stops of light available you can get a picture closer to what the eye actually sees. You can see the difference between a crop camera and medium format camera right now if you take a landscape with the sun in the frame, and that is only a few extra stops of light (recall that EVs are logarithmic so each stop is 2x the light). Most cellphone cameras have a native dynamic range that is just over 1/2 that of a crop sensor camera. If the crop sensor cameras used the same tricks as your cellphone, they would be able to do very impressive HDR in-camera.
Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by vr46 on Friday September 06, 2019 @03:31AM (#20893755)
It’s all true, but the point I was making is that photography isn’t just a technical pursuit nor are those tricks and abilities the things that everyone looks for. There’s more to photos than simply reproduction. None of these things has really shifted the overall quality of photography in the last 100 years as much as it has shifted the way photos are made. And that second shift is pretty much done.
Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by josephdviviano on Friday September 06, 2019 @11:42AM (#20896631)
I really disagree! The shift from film to digital allowed photographers to remove the price per photo aspect of photography from the equation, but only recently has the dynamic range, resolution, etc of digital matched properly developed film. Now, digital actually surpasses it. People are generally able to practice photography without going broke, which is an amazing development.

The Revenant would have been impossible to shoot even 10 years ago, the demands on the sensor or film would have been too great. This means the story couldn't be told at all! So the technology actually enables people to take photos that would have been otherwise impossible.

I'm also suspicious that the second shift is "done". I suspect the technology will always be pushed further at the high end of the camera technology market which will trickle down. Similarly, I suspect the software innovations used by Google / Apple will trickle down into the software of dedicated cameras, which will further widen the quality gap between the formats.

Quality isn't all about reproduction, it is also about creative possibilities. Right now, none of the smartphones can take a photo of a moving subject in low light. They depend on averaging frames which leads to subject blur. This isn't a minor detail, it's the difference between a photo and no photo.

Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by ubercow13 on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @12:50PM (#20879014)
I have an 8 or so year old APS-C and I honestly prefer my (new) phone’s pictures most of the time. It is just so much better at calculating exposure. With my camera I feel like I am constantly battling with blown out highlights and usually end up underexposing every picture and hoping I can fix exposure later. The dynamic range of a picture by default from my phone is just so much better. Of course when you zoom in or view on a large monitor the phone is going to lose out in other ways. I am sure newer cameras are better in this regard but it still goes to show how much phones have improved. Or maybe I just don’t know how to use my camera...
Re:Camera sales are falling sharply by kiseleon on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @03:05PM (#20880373)
Dynamic range has been increasing with each generation, as well as better metering. I bought a micro 4/3rds Olympus E-M10 3 years ago and it blew my APS-C Sony A330 that I had been using for years out of the water in every aspect.

I love my phone camera (Pixel 1) but if I want to take professional quality pictures I pull out my E-M10.