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Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by kortex on Sunday September 01, 2019 @08:59PM (#20855984)
I perform with and breath fire as a hobby. The single biggest risk to firebreathers isn't burns, but chemical pneumonitis, due to fuel inhalation (basically synthetic mineral oil with chain lengths 12-18). Took one look at that xray and thought, "yup, chemical pneumonitis" [1]. Also known as lipoid pneumonia.

In my research, one finding that stuck out [2] was that natural oils (triglycerides, saturated or unsaturated) are more pro-inflammatory than straight-chain mineral oils. MCT oil would absolutely cause acute inflammation and in severe cases, collapse of alveoli.

However, the long chains, longer than C14, have half-lives measured in months to years. The effects of these is harder to know, but excessive exposure causes essentially COPD.

Edit: oh look, here's an article specifically pointing out lipoid pneumonia [2]. I actually disagree with their thesis, that vegetable glycerine is causing the inflammation. I would bet it's more likely to be one of these thickeners, or a carrier agent for a flavor, causing the inflammation. I know people who go through over an ounce per day of VG solution that aren't getting chemical pneumonitis, but inhalation of sub-milliliter amounts of oils has sent friends of mine to the hospital.

Basically, if it's not air, it doesn't belong in your lungs. However, the degree and character of the damage done depends on the chemical composition.

Shorter molecules, molecules with more hydrophilic nature (alcohols, polyols, ketones, acids), biologically active molecules, are more acutely inflammatory, but usually the body can deal with them. Longer molecules, biologically inert ones, are less acutely reactive to the immune system, but can cause disruption of membranes and long term toxicity. Unsaturated fatty acids are especially bad because they can be oxidized directly into inflammatory signal chemicals. [4]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_pneumonitis

[2] pdf - https://www.ajronline.org/doi/pdf/10.2214/AJR.09.3040

"Mineral oil (a mixture of inert, long-chain, saturated hydrocarbons obtained from petroleum) and vegetable-based oils tend to cause minimal to mild inflammatory reactions (Fig. 3). The intraalveolar oils can coalesce in the alveoli and become encapsulated by fibrous tissue, resulting in a nodule or mass (paraffinoma) (Fig. 4). Conversely, animal fats are hydrolyzed by lung lipases into free fatty acids that trigger a severe inflammatory reaction that manifests as focal edema and intraalveolar hemorrhage [5]. "

[3] html - https://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2018-224350

[4] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2014.0048...

"unsaturated fatty acids can be oxidized in a tightly regulated and specific manner to generate either potent pro-inflammatory or pro-resolving lipid mediators. "

Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by avisser on Sunday September 01, 2019 @10:03PM (#20856260)
I have used an MCT vape before. I've made some of my own carts with it as well.

I wonder if you have any words on "MCT" being too broad a term. I made my carts with Bulletproof's Brain Octain, which claims to be 100% caprylic acid (C8).

I'm not naive enough to ask "Is it safe?" But I'm curious if you think an 8-chain MCT would treat your lungs significantly different than a 12-chain MCT?

I could easily imagine someone learning that you can make carts with MCT, and finding something cheap, only to be unknowingly using 100% C12. Cue the lipid pneumonia.

Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by kortex on Sunday September 01, 2019 @10:15PM (#20856307)
I've breathed fire with MCT oil (the storebought stuff that is basically liquid coconut oil). It's somewhat irritating, and I imagine if deliberately inhaled chronically it would cause harm.

C8 is really fascinating because, I reckon, it's too short to set off the inflammation cascade directly, so it would be up to macrophages to alert the body "hey this doesn't belong". However you still have the usual risk from hydrophobic product in the lung.

Personally, I would use vegetable glycerine and nothing else if you can at all avoid it. PG is a bit more irritating than VG, but any short polyol is going to be diffused away into the mucous much more easily than hydrophobic products.

Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by idDriven on Monday September 02, 2019 @02:15PM (#20860874)
100% agree with the VG (Vegetable Glycerin) recommendation, you will have to add a small 20-30% percentage of PG Propylene Glycol to decrease the viscocity (or alternately use pure VG and cut with small amount of normal saline but it won't make as nice a vapor) and then can use it in any actual vape device used for nicotine as these are meant to use water-based not oil-based mixtures.

For marijuana/hemp you can make a water-based tincture using VG as the solvent just using dried plant matter. A magical butter machine can do it, putting it in a bottle and shaking it up every day for a few months, there are likely other methods. It's similar to making a CBD/THC oil but instead using VG as the carrier.

Making your own tincture from decent-quality dried plant matter is the most economical and surefire way to know that it unadulterated and limited in contaminants.

Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by alephx on Sunday September 01, 2019 @09:32PM (#20856131)
Isn't MCT saturated?
Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by kortex on Sunday September 01, 2019 @09:40PM (#20856174)
Yes, sorry the wording was a bit ambiguous. MCT is almost entirely saturated. Any natural oils can be broken down into free fatty acids which have a pro-inflammatory effect when "not where they belong", i.e. in the interstitial space. However, unsaturated fats have the fun additional property that they can be "oxidized in a tightly regulated and specific manner to generate either potent pro-inflammatory or pro-resolving lipid mediators" [1]. So MCT oil is probably pro-inflammatory in the lungs, but vegetable oil even more so.

[1] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2014.0048...