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Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by cannaceo on Sunday September 01, 2019 @08:18PM (#20855840)
None of these cutting agents are approved for human inhalation and no studies will be done. From an epidemiological perspective these cases are tightly clustered both temporally and location wise which really limits the possibilities.

Common cutting agents in the licensed market are PEG200, PEG300, and MCT oil. None are those are proven safe from what I know.

In the black market the initial cutting agent was PEG600. Then TrueTerpenes came out with Viscosity ( https://trueterpenes.com/products/diluent/viscosity-extract-... ). Initially they said it was all terpenes (simple alcohols found in cannabis responsible for some effects and flavor) to sell it. It later came out that it was "mineral oil" but the reality is no one knows exactly what it is but it's a petroleum-based product of some kind. There was backlash against TrueTerpenes for this but selling mineral oil at $1500/liter (price point for cutting agents) is profitable. Some reports have described the symptoms as consistent with lipid pneumonia.

Next FloraPlex released their thickening agent. Then HoneyCutt. I started hearing stories of people selling 0% THC epoxies to unsuspecting buyers as distillate starting a few months ago.

Now there are people making their own thickening agents.

Is it a theory? Yes. I'm normally scientifically conservative but I'd place a friendly wager on this one.

Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by kortex on Sunday September 01, 2019 @08:59PM (#20855984)
I perform with and breath fire as a hobby. The single biggest risk to firebreathers isn't burns, but chemical pneumonitis, due to fuel inhalation (basically synthetic mineral oil with chain lengths 12-18). Took one look at that xray and thought, "yup, chemical pneumonitis" [1]. Also known as lipoid pneumonia.

In my research, one finding that stuck out [2] was that natural oils (triglycerides, saturated or unsaturated) are more pro-inflammatory than straight-chain mineral oils. MCT oil would absolutely cause acute inflammation and in severe cases, collapse of alveoli.

However, the long chains, longer than C14, have half-lives measured in months to years. The effects of these is harder to know, but excessive exposure causes essentially COPD.

Edit: oh look, here's an article specifically pointing out lipoid pneumonia [2]. I actually disagree with their thesis, that vegetable glycerine is causing the inflammation. I would bet it's more likely to be one of these thickeners, or a carrier agent for a flavor, causing the inflammation. I know people who go through over an ounce per day of VG solution that aren't getting chemical pneumonitis, but inhalation of sub-milliliter amounts of oils has sent friends of mine to the hospital.

Basically, if it's not air, it doesn't belong in your lungs. However, the degree and character of the damage done depends on the chemical composition.

Shorter molecules, molecules with more hydrophilic nature (alcohols, polyols, ketones, acids), biologically active molecules, are more acutely inflammatory, but usually the body can deal with them. Longer molecules, biologically inert ones, are less acutely reactive to the immune system, but can cause disruption of membranes and long term toxicity. Unsaturated fatty acids are especially bad because they can be oxidized directly into inflammatory signal chemicals. [4]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_pneumonitis

[2] pdf - https://www.ajronline.org/doi/pdf/10.2214/AJR.09.3040

"Mineral oil (a mixture of inert, long-chain, saturated hydrocarbons obtained from petroleum) and vegetable-based oils tend to cause minimal to mild inflammatory reactions (Fig. 3). The intraalveolar oils can coalesce in the alveoli and become encapsulated by fibrous tissue, resulting in a nodule or mass (paraffinoma) (Fig. 4). Conversely, animal fats are hydrolyzed by lung lipases into free fatty acids that trigger a severe inflammatory reaction that manifests as focal edema and intraalveolar hemorrhage [5]. "

[3] html - https://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2018-224350

[4] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2014.0048...

"unsaturated fatty acids can be oxidized in a tightly regulated and specific manner to generate either potent pro-inflammatory or pro-resolving lipid mediators. "

Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by avisser on Sunday September 01, 2019 @10:03PM (#20856260)
I have used an MCT vape before. I've made some of my own carts with it as well.

I wonder if you have any words on "MCT" being too broad a term. I made my carts with Bulletproof's Brain Octain, which claims to be 100% caprylic acid (C8).

I'm not naive enough to ask "Is it safe?" But I'm curious if you think an 8-chain MCT would treat your lungs significantly different than a 12-chain MCT?

I could easily imagine someone learning that you can make carts with MCT, and finding something cheap, only to be unknowingly using 100% C12. Cue the lipid pneumonia.

Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by kortex on Sunday September 01, 2019 @10:15PM (#20856307)
I've breathed fire with MCT oil (the storebought stuff that is basically liquid coconut oil). It's somewhat irritating, and I imagine if deliberately inhaled chronically it would cause harm.

C8 is really fascinating because, I reckon, it's too short to set off the inflammation cascade directly, so it would be up to macrophages to alert the body "hey this doesn't belong". However you still have the usual risk from hydrophobic product in the lung.

Personally, I would use vegetable glycerine and nothing else if you can at all avoid it. PG is a bit more irritating than VG, but any short polyol is going to be diffused away into the mucous much more easily than hydrophobic products.

Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by idDriven on Monday September 02, 2019 @02:15PM (#20860874)
100% agree with the VG (Vegetable Glycerin) recommendation, you will have to add a small 20-30% percentage of PG Propylene Glycol to decrease the viscocity (or alternately use pure VG and cut with small amount of normal saline but it won't make as nice a vapor) and then can use it in any actual vape device used for nicotine as these are meant to use water-based not oil-based mixtures.

For marijuana/hemp you can make a water-based tincture using VG as the solvent just using dried plant matter. A magical butter machine can do it, putting it in a bottle and shaking it up every day for a few months, there are likely other methods. It's similar to making a CBD/THC oil but instead using VG as the carrier.

Making your own tincture from decent-quality dried plant matter is the most economical and surefire way to know that it unadulterated and limited in contaminants.

Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by alephx on Sunday September 01, 2019 @09:32PM (#20856131)
Isn't MCT saturated?
Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by kortex on Sunday September 01, 2019 @09:40PM (#20856174)
Yes, sorry the wording was a bit ambiguous. MCT is almost entirely saturated. Any natural oils can be broken down into free fatty acids which have a pro-inflammatory effect when "not where they belong", i.e. in the interstitial space. However, unsaturated fats have the fun additional property that they can be "oxidized in a tightly regulated and specific manner to generate either potent pro-inflammatory or pro-resolving lipid mediators" [1]. So MCT oil is probably pro-inflammatory in the lungs, but vegetable oil even more so.

[1] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2014.0048...

Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by mayniac on Sunday September 01, 2019 @09:13PM (#20856042)
Why aren't propylene glycol or glycerine used as cutting agents?
Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by cannaceo on Sunday September 01, 2019 @10:40PM (#20856394)
THC oil doesn't mix with glycerine. You can mix it with propylene glycol if you are using other diluents as well.
Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by heavyset_go on Sunday September 01, 2019 @10:05PM (#20856269)
They decrease viscosity, making it obvious that a product was diluted.
Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by kortex on Sunday September 01, 2019 @09:24PM (#20856097)
Scientific wild-ass guess: Polyols (ethylene glycol, propylene glycol, glycerine) are very hydrophilic. It would be trivial to detect presence in oil concentrates - just shake with a known quantity of distilled water. The polyols will be pulled into the water layer and increase the volume. It's not quantitative but if you know the 'ol in question you can calibrate a curve and get within a few percent of actual with just graduated cylinders.
Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by lonelappde on Sunday September 01, 2019 @10:10PM (#20856287)
Is "approved for human inhalation" a thing? Don't regular cigarettes have tar that people inhale?
Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by kortex on Sunday September 01, 2019 @10:20PM (#20856320)
The only thing I know of approved for deliberate human inhalation are things like inhaler and nebulizer based drugs. Those are usually carried in a fluorcarbon (HFA-134a aka 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethylene in Ventolin inhaler, which just evaporates) or saline in the case of nebulizers.

Theatrical fog causes "irritation of mucous membranes such as the eyes and the respiratory tract associated with extended peak exposure to theatrical fog. " Another study "also found long-term exposure to smoke and fog was associated with both short-term and long-term respiratory problems such as chest tightness and wheezing".

Cigarettes are terrible, but vaping ain't vitamins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_machine#Adverse_health_eff...

Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by idDriven on Monday September 02, 2019 @02:27PM (#20860943)
The only instances I could find of respiratory irritation requiring medical intervention related to fog machine use where involving oil based fog machines, or mixed-use but have so far been unable to find case reports of Glycol or Glycerin based fogs alone.

Not all theatrical fog is the same as vaping as far as I am aware. If you have any articles specifically dealing with the components used for vaping I would be interested to read them. Vaping does not use oil.

Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by cwkoss on Friday September 06, 2019 @09:15PM (#20901173)
Vitamin vapes are a product that is actually being sold now, I know someone who has tried one.
Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by shkkmo on Sunday September 01, 2019 @08:25PM (#20855862)
I would agree that your guess is probably better than mine and I would be disinclined to bet against you. I hope the CDC has access to all this information so they can evaluate this as a potential cause.

My issue was only that you followed a bunch of informative facts with an untested theory that was not differentiated from the facts that preceded it.

Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by cannaceo on Sunday September 01, 2019 @08:33PM (#20855889)
My apologies, I didn't mean to come off as abrasive. Yes, I see your point about the presentation of facts.
Re:A Vaping Illness That’s ‘Becoming an Epidemic’ by shkkmo on Sunday September 01, 2019 @09:24PM (#20856099)
I didn't find you abrasive and I appreciate you sharing your information and insights with us.