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Re:Bontrager’s WaveCel material more effective at preventing... by sliken on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @10:37PM (#20826201)
I agree. I've raced on road, off road, been a bicycle messenger, and commuted on bike to work every working day since 1994. Accidents happen and helmets help. The most dangerous thing about a bike accident is generally the vertical distance. Try laying down on concrete, lift your head up an inch, and drop it. Keep in mind that when falling your acceleration is 9.8 m/sec/sec, so a 10 inch fall is worse than 10 times as bad as one inch.

The MIPS and Wavecell seem to assume that helmets grab the road with great traction and then snap your skull producing a large rotational acceleration so great that your brain falls behind. In my experience helmets (which are at first approximation spherical) hit in the center, easily skid, and induce approximately zero rotation in your skull.

I do recall in the 1990s or so that as brands switched from a heavier plastic shell (like the ancient bell helmets) to the then common nylon sleeve over the styrofoam that one manufacturer picked a particularly high friction material which did cause additional injuries. Once that was fixed everyone was happy again.

So absorbing energy from the fall is great. Playing games with additional layers with low internal friction or fancy ways to collapse is useless. I'm not completely against the idea, but seems laughable to pay 3-6X for something unlikely to help. Bike helmets that meet the toughest impact standards are available for $50 or so.

I personally have fallen many times, had my helmet skip many times (the longest was more than 10 feet) and never noticed my helmet gripping the ground and trying to torque my head.

Re:Bontrager’s WaveCel material more effective at preventing... by tzs on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:37PM (#20826444)
> Keep in mind that when falling your acceleration is 9.8 m/sec/sec, so a 10 inch fall is worse than 10 times as bad as one inch.

Shouldn't that be sqrt(10) times as bad?

The distance fallen under constant acceleration g for t seconds is 1/2 g t^2, so it takes sqrt(10) times as long to fall 10 times as far. The velocity after falling t seconds is g t, so falling sqrt(10) times as long gives a velocity of sqrt(10) times as much.

Re:Bontrager’s WaveCel material more effective at preventing... by DuskStar on Thursday August 29, 2019 @12:46PM (#20831182)
It also depends on whether 'badness' is a property of energy or velocity. Velocity goes with sqrt(distance) as you've demonstrated, but energy is directly proportional to distance in this case.
Re:Bontrager’s WaveCel material more effective at preventing... by lambda-11235 on Thursday August 29, 2019 @01:14AM (#20826864)
You're right about the velocity, but the impact force really depends on the properties of the material one lands on.

First consider that our kinetic energy is

K = mv^2/2

Additionally is the material has a spring constant k, then the force that results when the material deforms by x amount is

F(x) = kx

If we let d be the max distance the material, then we can integrate over the force to get the energy absorbed, which is equal to the kinetic energy.

int_0^d F(x) dx = K

kd^2/2 = mv^2/2

Now there are two ways the impact could work. Imagine we have a really thick crash pad, then we consider it to deform without limit and have a constant k, giving

d = sqrt(mv^2/k)

F_max = F(d) = v sqrt(mk)

But what about a helmet? It can only over it's thickness, at which point your head is basically in contact with the concrete. Thus, we have a constant deformation distance d, and get

k = mv^2/d^2

F(d) = mv^2/d

As we can see, depending on how we consider it we get either a force of sqrt(10) or 10 times the original amount. I probably failed to take into account something that someone who knew more about materials could point out.

tl;dr it's complicated because impact force does not necessarily scale linearly with velocity.

update: so after some conversation with others. It seems that head on concrete is better modeled by a constant d. So a drop of 10 times the height results in 10 times the force.

See also http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/impulse.html

Re:Bontrager’s WaveCel material more effective at preventing... by robotresearcher on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:49PM (#20826512)
The badness might be proportional to the energy being transferred through your head, which is simply proportional to the height you fell before stopping suddenly.

The square root in the velocity calculation goes away since

E_k = 1/2 MV^2

so the energy dispersed hitting the ground from a 10 inch fall is exactly 10x as bad as a 1 inch fall.

Of course the actual damage done by that energy transferred through your head will be some complex function due to bone breakage and cell tearing thresholds, etc. But as a first approximation of suck, I'd go with this simple linear model.

Re:Bontrager’s WaveCel material more effective at preventing... by sliken on Thursday August 29, 2019 @12:28AM (#20826691)
Ha, sorry, yes. I confused 10 times as long with 10 times as far... I should have double checked the math.

Still dropping your head an inch (painful) is a nice reminder of how much energy is involved from normal riding height.

Re:Bontrager’s WaveCel material more effective at preventing... by scarejunba on Thursday August 29, 2019 @03:10AM (#20827393)
Well, it's still worse than 10 times as bad because there are elasticity effects. You can see this on your nose. There is a force you can use to squeeze it that won't do anything but much more and you can break the blood vessels in it and give you a bruise. You could do that first thing many times but there's a threshold effect.

Or a balloon. It recovers from lots of pressing, even repeatedly. But there's a pressure from which it's never going to recover and crossing that threshold has binary outcome.

Re:Bontrager’s WaveCel material more effective at preventing... by gambiting on Thursday August 29, 2019 @05:34AM (#20828056)
>>but seems laughable to pay 3-6X for something unlikely to help.

I just bought a new helmet and the one with MIPS was among the cheapest options at the bike store I went to. There were many many other helmets without it that were vastly more expensive. I paid £50 for a Scott helmet that had MIPS, most other helmets were in the £80-150 range and most of them didn't have it. So I don't exactly feel like I paid extra for this technology, it just happened to be included with the helmet that was 1) within my budget 2) fit comfortably.

Re:Bontrager’s WaveCel material more effective at preventing... by sliken on Thursday August 29, 2019 @02:03PM (#20832037)
Sorry, I should have made that comment specific to WaveCel, the article mentioned helmets available in the $150 to $300 range.