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Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Scoundreller on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:43AM (#20810829)
> Moreover, for me to send any parcel (even very small ones, like 2 oz.) outside the US costs a small fortune these days, again because I'm subsidizing the Chinese shippers.

International shipping was expensive before China flooded the market b2c.

If you sent a pkg to China, the US would only have to drop it off in China, the last mile delivery cost is mostly up to China. The actual air freight cost to USPS is about $5/kg.

I think what’s really happening is that USPS (and Canada Post!) are using international shipping as a profit centre because there’s little competition and they need to subsidize legislated activities (6x/week door-to-door service for 53c or whatever it is).

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by ineedasername on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:17PM (#20811314)
"using international shipping as a profit centre"

Canada is truly awful in this respect. In Canada, it might cost around $50 to send a small package to another country (excluding the US, which is a little cheaper). In the US, the same package might cost a little over $10.

I'm in the US and I occasionally have to ship small light packages to Canada and was always frustrated when it cost me $10, 3x as much to ship a few hundred miles to Canada compared to 2,000 miles within this country. Then I learned that shipping that same package within Canada would cost almost $20.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Scoundreller on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:54PM (#20811839)
There’s a cottage industry of companies in big cities that will truck your US-bound package to the US for $1 each and deposit it into USPS.

Eg: chitchats express.

Sometimes Canadians do this for shipments to Canada because it can be a lot cheaper.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by rtkwe on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @03:41PM (#20813672)
How does that deal with customs and inspections?
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by lstamour on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @06:25PM (#20815057)
Originally they didn’t collect much data and used manifests on the individual packages, but for the past 5-6 years they’ve a computer system to enter package info, it’s basically a Google Sheet, and they show the manifest like any other shipping company. They’ll occasionally get a thorough stop but it’s up to chance as anything when at a trusted, high-volume border crossing. If you’ve a Nexus card and nothing to declare, you don’t actually have to stop at the border between the US and Canada if Nexus lanes are open... and if you do have something to declare you can drop off a form. Also they probably stick to the same land border crossings and the same schedule to make it easier long-term. They can close many borders but there a lot of commerce and cross-border travel between Canada and the US and parts of Canada can be more populated/central than parts of the US and vice versa. Besides, as long as the carrier follows directions from CBP or CBSA, the responsibility of the shipment belongs with the shipper and you have to leave your complete ”from” details and they even check IDs, in order to ship with them. They send the list in advance so anything suspicious can be flagged or recorded, that’s how customs works in this digital era...
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Scoundreller on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @06:50PM (#20815233)
Thanks for the extra perspective. At the end of the day, they're no different than Fedex bringing packages across the border.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by rtkwe on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @10:42AM (#20820252)
Yeah the description sounded very ad-hoc and quasi-unofficial but should have known it would be actually pretty normal.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Scoundreller on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @04:02PM (#20813882)
Show the manifest, they go through it. Dunno how much they inspect.

My guess is that the company just hires dual citizens to avoid visa issues.

US lets you do personal imports up to US$800 per import without taxes/duties, so they limit it to that.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by arcticbull on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @04:35PM (#20814163)
> My guess is that the company just hires dual citizens to avoid visa issues.

This isn't related, the company can hire anyone they want to man the trucks. Do it often, and you register with FAST.

> US lets you do personal imports up to US$800 per import without taxes/duties, so they limit it to that.

That only applies to personal good, not things you're bringing for commercial purposes, and there's a minimum away-from-the-country time.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Scoundreller on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @06:13PM (#20814958)
Well, that’s what the transport company requires. I’m guessing they’re brokering each package themselves, not as the entire lot at once.

I doubt US is letting them bring truckloads in if what I said about tariffs/taxes/duties is untrue.

https://support.chitchats.com/en/articles/1733099-what-items...

No minimum away-from-country time. That's for Canadians, not USians.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by elcritch on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:57AM (#20817195)
Sounds like the next thing for big VCs to fund. It used to be that going somewhere with strangers you met online was feared, then came Uber. Couch surfing? AirBnB. Next, getting packages around customs, tariffs, and expensive shipping by crowd sourcing? Bam! VC Unicorn.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by nwatson on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @06:06PM (#20814896)
Kinda like the Mexico-Canada dual-citizen Mennonite drug-smuggler Mafia: https://www.cbc.ca/fifth/m/episodes/2016-2017/the-mennonite-...
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by hinkley on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @03:39PM (#20813657)
And yet I've never had a reliability problem with USPS-shipped packages, whereas I've had so many problems with UPS that it's a joke among my friends that someone at UPS has a personal grudge against me. Lost packages, dented packages, me being home all day long and the doorbell never rings but there's a post-it on the door saying they couldn't deliver because nobody was home.

In theory USPS takes longer, but for me personally it's about the same time and a lot less of me getting upset at people. If USPS says Friday, I'm getting it on Friday. If UPS says Friday I'm getting it on Monday evening.

I miss when Amazon used to let you chose the shipper. That's been forever ago.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by analog31 on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @07:52PM (#20815554)
USPS has been great for my tiny side-business. They are cheaper than anybody else for packages under a pound, and you can create a first class shipping label from within PayPal. This is cheaper than priority mail, and seldom if ever takes longer. I've simply never had a lost package, despite shipping a couple hundred units per year for almost a decade.

On the receiving end, I like USPS because I can have my mail held when I'm on a trip -- the process is totally painless.

Now, who knows if my shipping is being subsidized. Probably, when one considers subsidies to transportation infrastructure. But I suspect that if we lose USPS, whatever money the government saves will be more than made up by having to bail out one or more of the private shipping services every few years, like other "too big to fail" industries.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by kuzimoto on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @08:52PM (#20815904)
In addition, if you're shipping smaller heavy items, you can get free shipping supplies like padded envelope and boxes for flat rate shipping which can be a better rate in some cases.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Taniwha on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @02:32PM (#20812988)
As I understand it (and even though I live in NZ I manufacture in China and ship all over the world from there) much of the airmail shipping from China is essentially founded on arbitrage of the empty space in air-mail shipping containers from Asia to the West - it's while it takes a while and sometimes your package goes out of Hong Kong, sometimes Singapore etc

In essence those packets are cheap because some smart person is buying up the empty space in containers that are already going and filling them - I assume that Air-Mail FROM the US could be equally cheap if someone was entrepreneurial enough to do the same there

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by nwallin on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @05:21PM (#20814498)
That still doesn't explain why it's so cheap.

Planet money did a pod cast on it. Some guy selling some product could buy a Chinese knockoff of his product (including shipping) for cheaper than it costs him to ship his product from his local post office to his house in the same town. (excluding the cost of the product) Think about that. The product plus shipping across the world is cheaper than shipping across town.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/08/01/634737852/epis...

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Taniwha on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @05:31PM (#20814580)
I think it's because they are buying space that otherwise would be empty, and maintain an elastic buffer of packages to fill those spaces as they become available - the outgoing mail containers on planes are likely booked and paid for months in advance so the people paying for them will happily take 20% of their normal rate to fill the rest of them at the last minute
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by nwallin on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @03:57PM (#20823471)
No, that's not the problem.

Here is the problem. I make a widget. It costs me $10 US to manufacture. I go to the post office, and ship it to an address directly across the street. They charge $7.

I go on AliExpress. I buy a similar widget, and ship it to the same address. The total cost, the item plus shipping, is $6.

Let's break that down. Their cost of manufacturing is lower. Let's say it's free. Ok fine. Trans Pacific shipping is cheap. Let's say it's free. Ok fine. They still have to ship it via the post office from the port in Long Beach to the post office in New Jersey; again, let's say that's free. The post office then has to deliver out across the street.

The post office charges me $7 to walk it it across the street. Why should the Chinese shipper only pay $6 for the same service?

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Scoundreller on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @06:15PM (#20814977)
That, and air freight only costs around $5/kg at regular rates.

The low-rate consolidators are kinda shameful by only bringing goods to the closest port to the origin, not the destination.

E.g. in Canada, they only bring it to the Vancouver port, while wealthier countries will pre-sort and air it to the closest intl mail port (Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver).

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Taniwha on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @07:24PM (#20815406)
this is a trade off between cost and speed of delivery - shipping out of China I have the choice of many different carriers - for example I can use cheap (and slowish) China Post, or faster and $6 more PostNL who will also give me tracking - I give my customers the cheap China Post for free and charge $6 for PostNL

(in the near future if US mail prices go up I may be forced to charge US customers more, I may also have to raise prices to US customers if I find that Trump's sanctions start to apply to small packages and I'm stuck paying from my end)

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by shkkmo on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @06:47PM (#20815218)
Nope, the prices were dictated by the UPU, a global treaty organization that the US is part of.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Taniwha on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @07:19PM (#20815371)
I think you're confusing "terminal dues" (which is what countries charge each other for delivering a package in the destination country) and the actual cost of shipping between countries (which is what I'm talking about here)
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by shkkmo on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @08:58PM (#20815946)
Since you are responding to someone comparing US domestic (in town) shipping prices to international shipping price, I don't see how you are not talking about "terminal dues".

International freight costs could explain why international shipping is more expensive than domestic shipping, but even if international freight prices are 0, they can't explain why domestic shipping is more expensive than international shipping.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by nickserv on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @04:29PM (#20814123)
Don't know about air mail, but for maritime and rail transport, there is much more going from China to the EU or US than in the other direction by volume.

This means cargo carriers have to send back empty containers to China.

As a result, it's cheaper to book a container, from, say, Antwerp to Shanghai than the reverse. The difference can be quite substantial, potentially hundreds of USD per container.

For the other parts of the trip I don't have any hard info but I would think rail and truck is cheaper in China per km when converted to USD.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by DoctorOetker on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:20AM (#20817334)
>Don't know about air mail, but for maritime and rail transport, there is much more going from China to the EU or US than in the other direction by volume.

Where can I verify this? Thats looking at only the direct transport? Or also indirect transport?

Consider a hypothetical container from the US/EU going to Africa (bringing products, second hand goods, "recyclables", ...), then the container could pick up raw minerals and resources going to China, now theres an empty container in China and it has to go back to US/EU?

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by nickserv on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:37AM (#20817425)
It's because the shipping containers belong to the shipping company, and are rented out for the trip.

So the shipping company will have a bunch of empty containers at the port of landing (destination), and needs to send them back to the port of departure to be filled again.

If trade between the two ports is balanced, then the containers will always be full regardless of the port of departure.

But since trade is not balanced, they wind up having to send empty containers on the "return" voyage. Which is pure loss for the shipping company, so they are willing to heavily discount routes that have empty containers transiting.

Which are these routes does change of course, but they are often those originating in the EU / US and arriving in Asia.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by londons_explore on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @03:30AM (#20817665)
If the containers were the only concern, they could be melted down and shipped back to China in a far more compact form.

Container manufacturing is very automated, so it can be very cheap to do so.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:22AM (#20817342)
It’s pretty much the result of our trade deficit. Not only does China export more than is, they export much lower value products on a volume/weight basis. Heck, a big USA export to China are airplanes that can simply be flown there.

China exports plenty to Africa, no need for such circuitous shipping patterns.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by DoctorOetker on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:00AM (#20820444)
China has a huge population, so material consumption (raw materials or finished products) for internal use in china, can bayesian catapult reasoning on value per volume/weight basis.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:06AM (#20820503)
It could, but China has other more nearby trade partners for raw materials (Russia, Central Asia, Indonesia, Australia).
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Scoundreller on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @06:17PM (#20814999)
That’s all especially true now that we can’t send our “recyclables” in those empty containers.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by lonelappde on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:40PM (#20811634)
A long time ago, USPS signed an insane sweetheart deal for free shipping from China, thinking that it would help US companies ship to China. But for many reasons (labor laws, environmental laws, go subsidies) outsidee of shipping costs, US-China post package shipping (not heavy industry whatever), is absolutely massively imbalanced. Chinese shippers massive privilege over US domestic shippers (shipping to ISo customers) was the main side effect. US shipping costs more than Chinese manufacturer + shipping, despite shipping from China being obviously more expensive in real world resources.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Scoundreller on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:57PM (#20811881)
The USPS signed an agreement for ePacket, but most of the packages are being shipped under UPU rules that most countries in the world are signatories to.

USPS fares better under ePacket packages than the UPU tarifed packages.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by trhway on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:52PM (#20811813)
>despite shipping from China being obviously more expensive in real world resources.

3 weeks container shipping on a super container ship vs. even cheapest truck shipping ?

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by lonelappde on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:53PM (#20811821)
The Chinese shippment also has to use a truck to get from Port.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by hinkley on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @03:45PM (#20813720)
Do you remember that article a couple years ago about pollution at the Port in LA? They've done a bunch to reduce ship emissions in dock but the truckers are popping up on the radar.

The short-haul truckers at the Port in LA are all independent owner-operators, which sounds like a cool libertarian/capitalist ideal until you figure out that new trucks are super expensive so the operators are almost exclusively buying used trucks, often quite old (and grandfathered into emissions rules). And as we all know from personal experience, there's a lot of soot that comes from a heavy diesel when it accelerates from a dead stop.

And there are no large necks to wring so now you're in the awkward situation of having to go after little guys.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by trhway on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @04:22PM (#20814059)
The short haul trucks is primary use case for going electric.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by trhway on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @03:21PM (#20813481)
1. around half of US population (and even bigger share purchasing/consuming capacity wise) live on a coast not far from a major port.

2. container ship is 10g/tonne-km of CO2, ground truck 60g/tonne-km of CO2

3. Shanghai to LA - 10000km, Shanghai to New York - 17000km

So, it is simple math that container delivery from Shanghai plus 100-200km or even more of truck delivery from the port beats any cross-US truck delivery (for the US West it beats even half-cross-US truck delivery). Of course when it comes to the math vs. ideological politics - last season of Veep was brilliant about it :)

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by bkor on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @06:45PM (#20815206)
> 3 weeks container shipping on a super container ship vs. even cheapest truck shipping ?

Container shipping is ridiculously cheap. See e.g. https://www.joc.com/maritime-news/capacity-cuts-keeping-asia.... Seems around 640 USD from Shanghai to North Europe as per above article/source. This for a 20 foot container. A lot of containers are 40 foot. US has loads of 45 foot containers.

If you'd go very far inland you wouldn't use a truck though; either a barge (inland vessel) or a train.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Scoundreller on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @06:54PM (#20815261)
Just FYI: EEE-class ships carry ~18000 20' equivalent containers. That's $11.5m per journey.

Presumably they make a profit on the journey to N. Europe, and take a loss on the return.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Scoundreller on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:55PM (#20811851)
A lot of it is actually airmail.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by compsciphd on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @05:39PM (#20814666)
container ship shipping from US to Middle East was cheaper for me than shipping my stuff from NYC to California (and similar shipment from east coast to middle east was less tha half the price of shipping from California). Boat is much cheaper than truck overall.