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A comment on India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution. Parent comment

Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by ggm on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:15PM (#20774058)
Even dirty coal is possibly better than dirty diesel and petrol. Yes, its dirty: what kind of remediation can be done in a centralized generator, compared to distributed catalytic converters in exhaust (which fail in service, or are not fitted) and a huge burden in NO and related problems.

Coal is bad, polluting, creates health hazards and we need to get rid of it. Petrol and Diesel are not "better" and there are reasons central generation may overall be net beneficial especially given the efficiency of generation, transmission losses and in-engine effects comparing ICE to EV

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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by 0xFFFE on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:37PM (#20774126)
India has an ambitious goal of generating 175GW from renewable sources by 2022. There are various solar power plants coming up all over the country.

Source: https://www.niti.gov.in/reports [Line item 6]

PS: NITI is the apex advisory body to the Indian Govt.

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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by 8bitsrule on Friday August 23, 2019 @12:59AM (#20774632)
That's a remarkable commitment. In 2016, NDTV said that India produced 300GW, of which 42GW was renewable. So, the 175GW goal adds 3 times as much. Even 50GW of that going to transportation ... whew!

NITI's report (2015)* says there are still 300M people without electricity, but that "India’s solar potential is greater han 750 GW and its announced wind potential is 302 GW". A fine demonstration of what foresight, will and technical capability can accomplish.

* https://www.niti.gov.in/sites/default/files/energy/175-GW-Re...

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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by xvilka on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:50PM (#20774374)
India also investing smartly in the nuclear technology, while less smart governments ditching it.
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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by supermatt on Friday August 23, 2019 @12:19AM (#20774481)
a governments smartness is defined by its investment in nuclear energy? why are renewables not a smart investment?
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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by Aloha on Friday August 23, 2019 @12:28AM (#20774514)
You still need to generate base load, only hydro out of the three renewables is good with base load, and no, batteries are not a replacement for base load generation. Pumped storage is, but it's pretty inefficient and requires the right physical siting to build.
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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by ggm on Friday August 23, 2019 @02:59AM (#20775102)
Base load is a misnomer. Nowadays people talk about dispatchable power. base load is an economic forcing function to justify high efficiency "always-on" generation models. Nobody actually wants this, as much as they want power when they need it. Synchronous condensers, PH, and fast response batteries with some topping up from gas turbines could be as good. Base power is just the low engineering effort answer.

There are other answers than "base load"

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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by adrianN on Friday August 23, 2019 @03:24AM (#20775228)
A good grid, batteries and power-to-gas is a replacement for base load generation.
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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by Mikeb85 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:26PM (#20774083)
Dirty coal and the inefficiencies associated with generating electricity, then storing it in lead-acid batteries and then turning an e-rickshaw is definitely less efficient and far more polluting than autorickshaws running on CNG.
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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by ggm on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:53PM (#20774190)
OK, I'll bite. Cite please. Include full lifecycle costs on CNG, including fracking and shipping.
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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by Mikeb85 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:15PM (#20774275)
Here: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti...
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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by ggm on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:51PM (#20774376)
Even with all those losses, the electric vehicle road trip is still better for the climate than driving a gasoline-powered car. Burning that much coal would release about 310 kilograms of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, compared with 350 kilograms by the 40 gallons of gasoline. Even though coal tends to emit more pollutants than oil for the amount of energy it generates, the efficiency of the electric vehicle, which recharges its battery with every brake, more than makes up the difference.

But.. the article doesn't say "CNG is better" It just says the worst-case costs in the US, for coal sourced power to charge the batteries.

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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by Mikeb85 on Friday August 23, 2019 @12:25AM (#20774502)
In India, most of the total power used is generated by coal. And yes, natural gas beats coal-powered electricity.
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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by ggm on Friday August 23, 2019 @03:00AM (#20775112)
Only if you disregard how natural gas is made. Fracking, and fugitive gas, and transport costs you don't seem to care about make CNG and LNG highly suspect.
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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by Gibbon1 on Friday August 23, 2019 @03:20AM (#20775207)
Not to mention while CNG is better than gasoline which is way better than diesel. Small internal combustion engines produce large amounts of air pollution.
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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by Mikeb85 on Friday August 23, 2019 @11:48AM (#20778820)
And there's no cost to mining coal? It also can't be transported through a pipeline like gas can.
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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by seanmcdirmid on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:46PM (#20774159)
Parent didn’t mention petroleum or diesel, just CNG.

CNG has much less pollution than those two things, but emits the same amount of CO2 (in concern of global warming).

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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by ggm on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:52PM (#20774182)
Fugitive gas from CNG is a thing. CNG comes from fracking, which wreaks havoc on the water table. You aren't considering the supply chain costs of CNG, but you implicitly do include them for coal, which comes from equally polluting sources.
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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by seanmcdirmid on Friday August 23, 2019 @12:02AM (#20774429)
NG is a byproduct of oil drilling. You either pipe and distribute to do work or burn it off. The former is much better environmentally than the latter.

Countries with local NG supplies, especially developing ones, really should use them.

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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by SuoDuanDao on Friday August 23, 2019 @07:13AM (#20776299)
Is that the case in India? I worked in the Canadian oil industry and most gas wells were dedicated hydrofractured wells - better for the air but way worse for ground water. I'd advise caution about hydrofracturing to any area that doesn't have an excess of water available.
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Re:India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution by ggm on Friday August 23, 2019 @03:02AM (#20775120)
You really think all CNG comes from oil? CNG comes from shale rock-oil, and from in-ground burning of coal to encourage methane production. Any developing economy with access to cheap power should use it, but don't pretend it has no downsides. East Timor is struggling to modernise with a huge oil field offshore and revenue, the story is not all rosy.
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